Let's talk about whispers

I despise whispers - but not for the reason you may expect. I understand the appeal; it’s a method your players can use to secretly communicate with each other during the day. Cool. However, whispers inevitably lead to issues, and we’re seeing some of them rear their head in the current King meta. Let’s talk about this.

First of all, why do I dislike whispers so much? I’ve been playing mafia games of all types for years, from the original party game to Forum Mafia to online video games like ToS and ToL. This means I have played many games both with and without whispers, so I have seen the effect they can have on a game. In general, what has led me to dislike whispers doesn’t have anythingto do with using them in-game. They aren’t overpowered on their own (although they can be in combination with other factors, as is the case with the infamous Mayor/Whisper Game meta in ToS), and they are most certainly not useless on their own either. However, it is nigh-on impossible to find a middle ground between these two extremes. Whispers are either too risky to be useful in any but the most extreme circumstances, or the single most effective for the Town/Blue Dragon to gather claims and solve the game. Nerfing them too much just leads them to be abandoned altogether. I have never seen whispers used in a way that doesn’t force the meta towards one of these two outcomes, and I doubt I ever will. Their very nature leaves them in a precarious position, and neither result of their inclusion is good for game design. You don’t want daytime discussion to be replaced with whispers, nor do you want a feature of your game to be basically useless. This is why I dislike whispers.

There are also some other good arguments I’ve heard against whispers, but one that really hits home with me was made by @ofLegends, discussing the impact whispers can have on new players:

Now, as for whether the meta of whispering all of your classes to the King is fun or not, that’s up to individual opinion. Personally, I’d rather have people claim and discuss during the day than everybody claiming to the King, as that leaves more than one player the ability to use social deduction, but I have seen people argue that they enjoy this meta, and more power to them. However, I believe that limiting whispers is better for the overall game health, and therefore is probably the best route to go regardless of whether you like the current meta or not.

The immediate and obvious solution to this all-or-nothing-type situation is to just remove whispers entirely, and I think that would work just fine. I’ve played plenty of games where there have been no whispers, and I have never walked away from these games feeling that they would have been better with them. This is an entirely valid solution, and one I would fully support.

However, I have my doubts that the developers would ever take this route (Town of Salem sure hasn’t, after all). So, I look to one of my suggestions for ToS:
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I feel that the same concept would work well here. Let Psychic handle secure private communication, let another Social class be able to send whispers, and either let the same Social class or maybe a different one read whispers. All non-BD classes will be able to whisper, and whispers will not be made public. This actually has far fewer problems than it may initially seem. The BD class that can send whispers isn’t instantly confirmable, as all evils can send them just as easily; a BD-sided whisper-reader is also unconfirmable, because no other BD can send whispers to test them. This makes whispering a risky proposition, but also allows evils to contact each other if necessary (Unseen can reach out to an NK), while punishing bad reads (whispering a BD class you thought was evil may spell your doom). In addition, you could remove the message for a Mercenary guarding a player, and let them claim it in whispers instead.

Now, I do fully admit that this suggestion was built for a different game, and may not work as well here. For example, how does the King interact with this? Maybe all Kings can send whispers, or maybe even read them. There are many posdibilities, and I sure as heck didn’t think them all through yet. So, please let me know what you think about whispers, and whether a system like the one I suggested ToS implement would be a good idea, or whether you’d just remove whispers full-stop.

Thanks, and have a wonderful day. :slight_smile:

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I think whispers are fine as-is lol but I guess you already knew that

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Buffing social classes and eliminating “Whisper Games” that utterly destroy scum when experienced players team up? Sign me up.

What if we only allowed 3 Whispers per game? Or maybe 1 Whisper per day, but it stockpiles and you can save them up so you can send 5 after 5 days?

Let’s just remove the playerbase while we’re at it.

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I’m assuming that means you dislike changing whispers whatsoever?

They certainly aren’t going to get removed and putting a limit on them won’t really do much besides forcing people to put more information into one whisper.

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Bos, I’m intrigued to hear your reasoning for why we shouldn’t remove whispers. I like the whole ‘whispers as daychat’

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I agree with your latter point, which is why I don’t suggest arbitrary limits.

Care to explain the reasoning behind your first point though? Whispers seem to be harmful to game design on a foundational level.

Whispers were perfectly fine before the King whisper meta. Just removing them is not how to fix that problem.

People like to whisper. No one is going to leave the game because whispers are still there. People will leave if you remove them.

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I mean it’s not like the entire playerbase will leave upon whispers being removed. I see your point, and tbh I dislike whispers on a conceptual level, so…

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Then maybe you and others should’ve been more vocal about it before release. Little late to remove them now.

Personally I enjoy games where I have no idea what is going on and am just told to follow the King or die. Mainly because I don’t really play Throne Of Lies to socially deduct as I don’t know how to nor do I want to learn.

Maybe that’s just me though.

I love your attitude. Not like we’ve already said we’re trying to make the King whisper meta less effective.

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Let’s just all act like we’re better than everyone who doesn’t believe the same things we do.

It’s obvious that it’s a problem that is going to be fixed, but Orange is arguing that now is the best time to eliminate whispers overall. Considering that, in the politest terms, I actually haven’t heard an argument for why whispers are a good thing yet, I can’t see why removing them now isn’t a good change.

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Because it allows people to communicate without outting themselves. It’s a game with conversion in it. It can be advantageous to be able to whisper someone information so you don’t have to out yourself to the whole court.

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Right, but the question is that is it a good thing to be able to communicate your claim without outing? Is that good for the meta overall?

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Normally I’d be right there with you, criticizing people acting elitist, but if you scroll up, you’ll notice that you started with sarcasm in your first post on this topic, so at the very least calling Hippo out for his sarcasm seems like a bit of a double standard.

You’ll probably think I’m more of a jerk for pointing that out, but at this point you seem to already believe I’m a negative person, so I’ll live with it. Sorry.

That aside, however, I’m not sure how you plan on making whispers less effective without making them far too risky to be worth it. I’ve seen many people try, but none succeed at that goal. If you can do it, I will be in awe. And I know that you’re the exact person who would sit down and work hard on this to try and solve it. I really respect that work ethic of yours. It’s just that this is a problem I don’t think is solvable through nerfs and buffs.

2 Likes

Just my 20cents. But back in beta there was a tendency for small trusted groups to form and whisper among each other. I thought this was great and was how whispers were intended to be used.

The best way to hand whispers is to make it START OUT too risky but then gradually become or at least feel less risky as you learn who to trust and get information.