I’ve found that framing a scouted target does not fool the scout. Could this be changed? It would be nice for example to bait a sheriff into scouting you, then frame yourself =D Would also make people less likely to trust scouts, which I think is good
Would be overpowered and make the success of a fool/scorned rely too much on their abilities as opposed to their skill in persuading the court. I much prefer wins where scorned wins by impersonating a drunk or a sheriff, instead of having a lucky frame. In a 2 sheriff’s game, you’d have 4 chances to get a successful frame where the scout’s frame is even stronger, as most unseen’s counterparts retain proving abilities like telepathy or forced voting. It’d also imbalance their win rate in cult vs unseen as they are twice as likely (give or take) to have successful frames in unseen games. It’d also really devalue the sheriff role even more, which I think is unnecessary. Absolutely do not support.
2 Likes
Yeah but a Scorned buff would be nice since she only has a 30% winrate.
For both Scorned and Fool, I feel that having them fool Scout is good.
I don’t think the Fool / Scorned win rate is really worth considering (this would be fairly rare anyway and wouldn’t have a massive impact.) The much more important thing is that it gives people at least a notional argument if a confirmed Sheriff says they were converted. Leaving people with no argument at all is very bad for the game.
I think you’re focusing on the wrong thing. Fool / Scorned success isn’t a huge deal because their victory or loss only directly affects the Fool or Scorned. It’s much more important to ensure that BD has to rely on their skill (rather than catching people purely through 100% accurate abilities like Scout.) The reason why Fool and Scorned have the ability to fool investigatives is to ensure that BD has to actually think and not just mindlessly do what the Sheriff tells them to.
Generally speaking, it’s more useful to look at things from the perspective of the ‘main’ conflicts of the game (BD vs. Cult / Unseen vs. NK) rather than how things affect individual non-NK classes. Given that the game is over when BD finds all their enemies, it’s much more important to challenge BD than it is to challenge the Fool / Scorned, so I support giving them abilities that can trick BD abilities whenever possible.
Or, in other words: Worry less about the skill required to play a Fool or Scorned, and more about improving the skill required to play everyone else. This change might make Fool or Scorned a little easier, but it would make playing BD harder (while rewarding BD who can figure out if something was a lucky Fool / Scorned frame-up or not) and would reward clever Cult / Unseen by giving them at least a theoretical way to lie if caught getting converted. The game as a whole would require (and allow for and reward) more skill with this change in place, regardless of the impact on the individual Fool or Scorned.
4 Likes
The mere existence of a scorned already devalues scout, because sheriff impersonations are a thing. Scout also cannot find MM, so it is less of a priority that it is fallible. Confirmed sheriffs are also not a 100%, because bussing MM’s posing as sheriffs exist (granted this one was unfortunately devalued when 1 sheriff became guaranteed), but that can always be your theoretical defense. That is about as far fetched as a scorned framing the scout in my opinion.
You say that I look at the scorned/fool too much in isolation and that they are neutral so their victory does not really impact the main factions, but that is simply not true. Scorned’s starting targets are BD and, in my game experience, their vote afterwards tends to lean to scum. Fool’s very win condition takes away up to 2 days of lynching for BD. They are allies to scum and their win condition directly impacts how successful scum is. With the scout change, that’d make it even more likely Fool will get executed early, because frame is typically used early game.
I just don’t think it is worth it to “ruin” Scorned/Fool, by making their win depend more on their abilities than their social play to give converted BD a really fringe defense. It is on par to me to the occupy immune NK claiming “a CW must have barriered me”. When do you actually see that defense being succesful? I think the same would occur against this new theoretical defense.
If you really want to make scout fallible, there are better ways to do it. Give it as a new targeted day ability coming into play the next day that messes with all day abilities in some way, making butler poison/forced voting/telepathy unusable invisibly and having framed scout. It’d fit on the Servant/Alcoholic/Herbalist/Poacher/Sage or replace distract on Assassin with this. It would also get rid of the unseen vs cult discrepancy I talked about before.
1 Like
Making the game trivial for BD if they can trust one guy is still going too easy on them. It is better for the meta to have a wide variety of possible claims and explanations for results, especially since, in practice, it is usually pretty easy to end up with a confirmed Sheriff.
A court that leaves someone who looks like a victorious Scorned alive is idiotic and deserves to lose. (Not so much because of the Scorned’s vote, although that’s a danger, but also because they could be the NK.)
BD has the highest winrate out of every faction, and (as the lower Fool / Scorned winrates show), the majority of Fools and Scorned still manage to get caught. But, beyond that, from the perspective of both BD and evils, this change would require more thinking and lead to more interesting strategies. This change wouldn’t force them to mindlessly lynch anyone who comes up as converted via scout. If they do so, that’s their fault.
Your idea that it would “ruin” them is completely absurd; this would improve them. The chance of a “random” win from this (ie. one where the Scorned / Fool did nothing but blindly use a frame on someone who coincidentally happened to be scouted) is extremely low; they would benefit from figuring out how to trick the Sheriff into scouting their targets, or from figuring out that they’re likely scouted and knowing to frame.
Additionally, to take full advantage of it, a Scorned would have to help prevent the court from realizing their target is a Scorned target.
“CW barriered me” doesn’t work because people expect the CW to confirm (CW being, after all, a BD role.) It’s not comparable. Do you expect people to ask the Scorned to confirm that it was a frame?
Additionally, the defense would be much stronger if you can convincingly argue that you’re probably a Scorned target. This would reward quick thinking and clever strategies, and punish courts who mindlessly lynch anyone any time a confirmed Sheriff says “Scout says X was converted!” That’s good. Mindless play is bad.
You contradict yourself. You said that you cared about the impact of Scorned / Fool because having them cause a mislynch hurts the BD (which I guess you feel would be nerfed too hard by this change?); then you turn around and suggest this convoluted and frankly extremely silly way of hurting BD in the same way. If you believe that giving this ability to the Scorned / Fool and giving it to the Servant/Alcoholic/Herbalist/Poacher/Sage/Assassin would hurt the court the same way, and you’re ok giving it to the Unseen, why not just… give it to the Fool / Scorned, who are supposed to be the roles leading the court astray? Fool / Framed individual gameplay doesn’t matter as much since they’re solo neutrals, so it’s much “safer” to give something like this to them.
You’ve conceded that their winrates are not a big deal compared to the impact they have on the court as a whole, so why would you care who, specifically, gets the ability to make the BD mislynch based on a fake Scout report?
(In fact, your alternative suggestion is worse. Giving the ability to the Assassin would make it appear so frequently that scouts would be useless. Giving it to a converted role would make it almost never appear due to the rarity of converted roles staying around for long and the fact that only one exists at once. It’s much simpler and more straightforward to give it to the Fool / Scorned, who will be omnipresent as a possibility but who only trick results on the Fool or the Scorned targets, preventing it from becoming overwhelming the way an Assassin would.)
5 Likes
A court that leaves someone who looks like a victorious Scorned alive is idiotic and deserves to lose. (Not so much because of the Scorned’s vote, although that’s a danger, but also because they could be the NK.)
Scorned can easily prove themselves by TB’ing any player. There is also no true need for them to out themselves even though I usually see that happening. Just the fact that they are sometimes left alive and they tend to lean scum with their vote (you didn’t argue against this) supports the overall premise that the class Scorned aids scum.
BD has the highest winrate out of every faction, and (as the lower Fool / Scorned winrates show), the majority of Fools and Scorned still manage to get caught. But, beyond that, from the perspective of both BD and evils, this change would require more thinking and lead to more interesting strategies. This change wouldn’t force them to mindlessly lynch anyone who comes up as converted via scout. If they do so, that’s their fault.
Winrates per patch are not publicly made known as far as I know and I don’t see how that is relevant anyways. I argue against changing the way scorned/fool tends to win from impersonating classes socially to mostly relying on their abilities doing their work for them. That is the main and only point I’m trying to get across. If BD wins more than they should, then buff scum classes in appropriate ways.
Your idea that it would “ruin” them is completely absurd; this would improve them. The chance of a “random” win from this (ie. one where the Scorned / Fool did nothing but blindly use a frame on someone who coincidentally happened to be scouted) is extremely low; they would benefit from figuring out how to trick the Sheriff into scouting their targets, or from figuring out that they’re likely scouted and knowing to frame.
Let’s unpack this “extremely low chance”, scout’s frame is stronger than investigation frame, because scout cannot be occupied or not occur because sheriff is being jailed. Let’s say an average of 1.5 sheriffs, having both expert investigation and scout, so 2 x 1.5 = 3 chances of having a successful frame. Sheriff won’t investigate themself or king so 14 players left. That’s a 3/14’th chance or a little over 1 in 5 games that scorned will have a random win day 2. Now factor in that they get 3 frames and I find it ludicrous that you say the chance is “extremely low”.
Additionally, to take full advantage of it, a Scorned would have to help prevent the court from realizing their target is a Scorned target.
Which is way way harder to do for the court on a scout frame, because converted unseen counterparts keep their proving abilities. You’d have both the framed Sheriff and the Scorned going for his head.
“CW barriered me” doesn’t work because people expect the CW to confirm (CW being, after all, a BD role.) It’s not comparable. Do you expect people to ask the Scorned to confirm that it was a frame?
I’ll concede on this analogy. You’d honestly think that this theoretical defense would have much success however?
Additionally, the defense would be much stronger if you can convincingly argue that you’re probably a Scorned target. This would reward quick thinking and clever strategies, and punish courts who mindlessly lynch anyone any time a confirmed Sheriff says “Scout says X was converted!” That’s good. Mindless play is bad.
I’m not arguing against making scout fallible. I’m arguing against the way how it is proposed here. You make Scorned a more mindless player through this change.
You contradict yourself. You said that you cared about the impact of Scorned / Fool because having them cause a mislynch hurts the BD (which I guess you feel would be nerfed too hard by this change?); then you turn around and suggest this convoluted and frankly extremely silly way of hurting BD in the same way. If you believe that giving this ability to the Scorned / Fool and giving it to the Servant/Alcoholic/Herbalist/Poacher/Sage/Assassin would hurt the court the same way, and you’re ok giving it to the Unseen, why not just… give it to the Fool / Scorned, who are supposed to be the roles leading the court astray? Fool / Framed individual gameplay doesn’t matter as much since they’re solo neutrals, so it’s much “safer” to give something like this to them.
No contradiction here. You went into the macro view of the game and I simply chimed in with my thoughts on that. Making scout fallible is not something I’m against. In fact, I’d be for it with a proper suggestion, but this one in particular ruins in my opinion the way Scorned/Fools reach their goal. Why wouldn’t scum classes have more framing abilities. Illusionist has mindwarp. Ritualists can reverse-frame CL.
You’ve conceded that their winrates are not a big deal compared to the impact they have on the court as a whole, so why would you care who, specifically, gets the ability to make the BD mislynch based on a fake Scout report?
Because back to the micro view. It makes the Scorned/Fool ability-reliant and way less challenging and I particularly enjoy them how they are now.
(In fact, your alternative suggestion is worse. Giving the ability to the Assassin would make it appear so frequently that scouts would be useless. Giving it to a converted role would make it almost never appear due to the rarity of converted roles staying around for long and the fact that only one exists at once. It’s much simpler and more straightforward to give it to the Fool / Scorned, who will be omnipresent as a possibility but who only trick results on the Fool or the Scorned targets, preventing it from becoming overwhelming the way an Assassin would.)
It’d solve the use telepathy/forced voting/butler poison proving abilities. If it’s only 1 or 2 uses, it will definitely not show up as often as you claim. The assassin will have a more nuanced decision between using poison/attempting a frame. You said you liked less mindless play. There it is. It can also be given to all offensive unseen classes to make it more frequent. Another possibility is the MM, who doesn’t have great day abilities as of now. Thematically, it’d fit very much on a “Mastermind” framing other people.
To be fair, won Scorned being able to Trollbox people was an unexpected change that I have yet to see the reasoning for.
@Ellie what was up with that anyways?
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I can’t speak for Bos but I assume it had something to do with the fact that you have to wait until the end of the game to get your gold, even when you’ve already won, so doing nothing the entire time could be seen as too boring to bother waiting.
1 Like
