Moderators Obsession with "Toxicity"

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

It’s honestly very concerning given the most recent Discord news post that devs in this game are going to start spending most of their time looking over cleaning out “toxicity.” Throne of Lies is a great game and I’d hate to see it choked out by something as subjective as what someone defines ‘toxicity’ as. I’m sure there will be varying degrees here, but a more concise interpretation of what defines bad behavior would be helpful, ‘hate speech’ ‘toxicity’ and other bland terms are basically a blank check for mods.

Blizzard has spent the latter half of Overwatch’s life trying to ‘oust toxicity’ instead of letting the player base flourish naturally, it has only bounced back in their face and created a less engaged as well as watered down community. I’d hate to see Throne of Lies meet the same fate. There are still class, balancing, and technical issues with this game that require far more attention than words on a screen that ‘offend’ people - placing high priority on something so abstract and inconsequential is a game killer. I sincerely hope that whatever focus on ‘toxicity’ (horrifically vague industry buzzword) is used with discretion and isn’t an attempt to try and shape the games culture and audience to what the dev thinks it should be.

If I could make one recommendation and one recommendation only:

Create a very aggressive chat filter that filters out whatever the mods deem ‘toxic’, and then give the player the ability to turn that filter off. I’m sure you’ll find very quickly that most players will turn that chat filter OFF.

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#2

That suggestion won’t work because it misses the point. The point is not to prevent specific words (people get around those all the time), but to destroy the culture that makes that kind of talk acceptable. There is a topic in this very forum about rape jokes starting to crop up in the game. A culture that enables that kind of talk is in need of help.

Every person that gets warned/banned has a choice. They can choose to finally connect the dots and say “This happened to me because of something I did” and learn accordingly, or they can choose to blame the moderators/general player base for being overly sensitive/vague and continue running straight into the hard wall of reality, as many times as it takes until they learn.

If you are a person that feels disdain for the feelings of others and think you should have the freedom to say/do as you please, you are just not a good person. Instead, try putting yourself into other people’s shoes. Try imagining what it’s like to be on the other side. And if you can’t, then maybe consider listening to people telling their experiences/feelings so that you can start developing some empathy skills and avoid behaving in a way that might net you negative consequences later.

#3

I do think a filter is a good idea. Allowing players to instantly deal with toxicity themselves can only be good.

Toxicity definately is a problem and I’m glad it’s being addressed and prioritised.

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#4

I think that the idea that you even could eradicate toxicity in ToL is absurd. I’ve only seen one community online so far that was low toxicity, and that would be the SlateStarCodex community, which is one which has the huge advantage of drawing in people who identify as rational, and thus flaming doesn’t fit so well with them.

ToL doesn’t draw in a low toxicity community; it draws in gamers, which aren’t exactly known for their restraint. In other words, I think that if you were looking to build a toxic free community, you’d need to start by marketing ToL to low toxicity players, otherwise you’ll just be banning half your player base.

Seconldy, ToL has a second layer of anonymity that goes beyond the normal internet anonymity; you choose your name each game. So if I’m a jerk in one game, only the mods will know who I was.

As I said before, I think my concern here isn’t just that they want to abolish toxicity, it’s that they might go about it via increasing banning rather than changing gameplay or adding features to reduce toxicity.

The MVP system was a good idea… for a game that already had low toxicity. The problem is that MVP doesn’t go to the real MVP’s, since players use it as a trolling tool, further increasing anger and disrespect for the MVP system. Just look at throne of salt for where people are mad about no MVP.

And finally, no, I’m not a person who

I’m just concerned that we’re going to lose half the player base and waste time on this issue instead of fixing gameplay stuff.

Finally, a suggestion. Add pings. Let me “ping” an action on someone and a result, for any class. Yes, this would be a pain to inplement, but the idea is that I could post logs, real or fake, that would be formatted so as to bypass muting. Then bring muting to the forefront of the UI. AKA, do what league does. Let me mute toxic people, but still give them a way to pass actually important information. While this won’t fix the problem that people are jerks, it will fix the problem that I have to listen to them. Additionally, it would help to stadardize logs and remove arcane notation systems which can often get players exed.

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#5

“Feelings” “Other people’s shoe’s” “Imagining” aren’t concrete terms that have any place in moderation. The fact that you think you can ‘destroy culture’ and create a very specific subjective one that you have ideologically formed in your own mind only shows that you think you can control others and their attitudes. The honest truth is that throwers ruin game experiences more than people who put words on a screen that you don’t like, I shouldn’t have to explain the concept to someone who is supposed to be an adult - but I guess it will constantly need reiteration.

The ‘hard wall of reality’ is that others ARE extremely sensitive, and someone will ALWAYS be offended - if you ban all who offend other’s feelings there will be no-one left to play your game. ‘Empathy skills’ should be practiced in therapy, not a medieval themed version of Clue video game where people just like to unwind and have some fun without constant fear of an egregious and overbearing ban hammer always waiting in the wing.

Given your logic, a chat filter would 100% work - people who are easily offended have nothing to worry about because they will never see words that make them upset. Then people who are actual adults who understand society doesn’t act how they see fit can have a censorship free fun non-choked gaming experience by turning the filter off. There is no need to control others, constantly ban people, and ‘form a culture’ that will most likely backlash and leave your game to greener pastures.

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#6

well the things I see people get banned for are mostly… above the red line. The things I saw aren’t things that offend only extremely sensitive people…

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#7

The words you have so much distaste for are the building blocks for being a human being that can function successfully in a group. They are part and parcel of every human interaction.

If you think you need therapy to develop empathy skills (something you should be using every time you interact with another person), that says a whole lot more about you than me.

#8

I love that the meta toxicity conversation has already turned toxic, Let’s keep it civil shall we? @ShadowKnight @poopmaster

2 Likes
#9

I had no intention of further participating in this thread, but thanks for @ing.

#10

I don’t understand the premise of this thread. Moderation will always be necessary in a game like this, exactly to prevent throwing, and those specific “toxicity” reports that you are describing are usually paired with throwing and are way easier to recognize than throwing anyways.

A chat filter will not solve toxicity, because first of all they are extremely fallible and easy to get around. Changing gay (as in meant in a negative way, something that I do not support, but I wanted to give a “mild” example) to ghay is still instantly recognizable and you cannot suddenly start banning words like gray either when chatting is the core of the game. Language will most definitely evolve around a chat filter and all the moderation that is done now will just shift towards banning players that get around the chat filter. Secondly most toxicity is context based and is not simply a string of slurs after each other. Unfortunately, toxic people can string sentences together just fine.

I am happy that the Throne of Lies team makes an effort to thwart people that spam nazi propoganda in chat, feel edgy in naming themselves after recent school shootings or make death notes with black people being hung accompanied with racial slurs. (Now that I think about it, how is a chat filter, going to moderate a death note?) Those players can just fuck off to other games or learn from their actions and cut that shit out. Throne of Lies has nothing against swearing as far as I have experienced, just against personal or identity attacks.

I feel the proposed ping system will actually really limit creativity by the way. Chatting is the main function in ToL, as the only action you can perform otherwise are extremely simple day abilities or voting. It is incomparable to league’s system and why that exists in my opinion.

4 Likes
#11

From browsing the #justice channel, same. Much of the toxicity that caused people to be banned there was typically either gamethrowing or over-the-top racism. As long are you’re not doing anything like intentionally causing your own faction to lose or praising Hitler you should be fine.

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#12

There’s no downside to introducing a chatfilter though. Just means children can have an easier time playing knowing they won’t be verbally assaulted.

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#13

Question. Poop, have you checked the Justice thread in the ToL Discord?
If not, do so.
The point of the game, and all games in general, is to have fun, and while balancing the game is definitely necessary to allow for more fun, some people are only there to be assholes and detract from the experience.

#14

Another factor to consider is the new type of ‘toxic’ that a toxicity purge creates. Players take it upon themselves to define what toxic is, going as far as gamethrowing because of someone being ‘toxic’ (often they have broken no rule set by the mods).

I like to put on a bit of bravado in games sometimes if I plan on playing aggressive and pressuring people. I do this as BD to deter conversions (converting someone rowdy isn’t ideal for evils) and getting evils to slip up. Anyway, I’ve had games where Knights, despite knowing I am a proven BD class and certainly not converted, CS me for being “toxic” or for ‘being an asshole’.

They might not be wrong about the latter reason, but what right does that give them to gamethrow? If anything, greater concern should be given to ACTIONS. I get far more frustrated with someone using abilities to hinder their team as opposed to them saying mean things in the chat.

A great majority of ‘toxic’ chat comes from people deliberately doing something stupid to bait such responses. The chat is the symptom, we need to go for the cause.

#15

It’s not as if we don’t punish people who do that too, though.

#16

Absolutely, I don’t really have an issue with the mod team. They’re pretty consistent with how they enforce the rules and whatnot. I just feel there is a greater focus, based on dev announcements and stuff, on chat related toxicity compared to actual ingame throwing, particularly veiled ones that aren’t as blatant.

2 Likes
#17

Is your IGN poopmaster?

#18

I don’t see how that question is even remotely relevant, please stay on topic if you can. If you have a personal request about my in-game play feel free to send me a PM.

#19

pss that’s a dev you may not want to piss those people off

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#20

I don’t have ‘distate’ for those words, they’re just extremely vague and have no place in moderating a video game. Again, the fact that you think that you have the ability to assume the type of person I am in real life only lends credence to the exact things I have been talking about. The types of issues you have about human interaction are better left in group circle or therapy. No one is playing ToL to touch the hearts and minds of others and to empathize, they’re there to have fun and YOLO bomb.

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