More ideas on how to make Noble less confirmable

Feedback/Suggestions
#1
  • Change Court Spy so it reveals past whispers, instead of allowing Noble to read whispers in realtime.
  • Change Noble Twin so it is invisible unless it affects whether someone is executed. This point has been discussed to death already.
  • Change Political Pressure so it is invisible unless it affects whether someone is put on trial.

This last point means that if 5 people are required to put up Player X, and the first person to vote up X was already forced to vote against X, nobody is informed that anyone was forced to accuse X.

It also means if a Noble forces someone to vote against Player X, where 5 votes are needed to put him up, and only 3 other players vote against Player X, the court sees that only 3 players are accusing Player X and are oblivious that a 4th was forced to accuse him. Until and unless another player voluntarily accuses Player X, which they may opt not to do if they are evil and don’t want to confirm the Noble.

I think this may be complicated from a development perspective but not in actual gameplay, since it’s easily understood that the notification “Someone was forced to accuse” will only occur if it affects whether someone is put up to trial.

1 Like
#2

What’s wrong with the current spy?

Tbh I don’t get why this hasn’t been added already. It’s a simple change, and confirmation should be avoided when possible.

Question: Will this announce the message to the entire court? If so then it shouldn’t. It would be even worse than the current one, which is confirmable only to a single player. It should just work like it does currently, but only notify the player who has been forced if their vote has made a difference.

#3

What’s wrong with the current spy?

It’s so confirmable?

Tbh I don’t get why this hasn’t been added already. It’s a simple change, and confirmation should be avoided when possible.

Yeah…

Question: Will this announce the message to the entire court? If so then it shouldn’t. It would be even worse than the current one, which is confirmable only to a single player. It should just work like it does currently, but only notify the player who has been forced if their vote has made a difference.

There’s already a public message that “X number of players are needed to put someone on trial.” The message is unnecessary, since you can calculate it yourself based on the number of living players, but it prevents unwanted tediousness.

If someone is invisibly forced to accuse someone (call this ‘someone’ Z), we don’t need to make that information public unless Z gets voted up. Otherwise, you could count the number of “Y accused player Z” messages that preceded Z getting put on trial and realize that it was smaller than the publicly-known number of accusations required to put someone up.

We don’t want to encourage tediously counting the number of accusations involved in putting someone on trial, just to find out if someone was forced to accuse.

So just make it publicly known to the person who was forced to accuse, with a system message … if and only if the person which was put on trial had someone else forced to accuse them, and that person who was forced to accuse did not voluntarily accuse also.

This is less confirmable than the current force-vote, since in order to confirm whether someone was forced to vote, the person they were forced to accuse must be put on trial without them voluntarily accusing them.

Another reason this helps reduce confirmability of Political Pressure is the fact that confirming it was used requires a trial, often a risky endeavor that may not be worth it.

I just realized I misunderstood what you said and wasted all that time explaining what you already understood. You are right, the message should not be public, only known to the person who was forced to accuse.

#4

Mechanics of “unless something happen X will not show” are not the answer, I would gladly take a rework of the abilities.

#5

You’re wrong sorry

#6

Except if its invisible its more confirmable than pp already is

(5 players left)
“I forced A to vote E” (he didnt because he cant)
Okay, B, and C vote E
(No hammer)
Its mechanically confirmed that no pp occured, whereas if feedback is given generically that someone voted its unprovable whether it was done freely or not.

#7

They aren’t. This does not fix the issue in any given way. To say the least, it will create an unheathful meta where to confirm Noble you need to waste a vote or execution. Not to say the point of the ability right now is to be confirmable, not the effects at trial it has. Otherwise, it would not be so easily readable or literally announced to the court. The effects are merely a flavour that does something useful, when the point is basically strong late game (Force Vote) and mildly confirmable (Announced Vote). Thing is in the state the game is right now it does not need that confirmation, but it also does not need additional trial vote. The double is ok, to reach the point where Noble uses it everyone is almost confirmed and there are more classes able to do this.

#8

Why? Noble twin is a good concept, it’s just way too confirmable.

That requires a lot of effort just to confirm a single player. Evils can easily screw it up. Plus you shouldn’t be wasting a trial just for confirmation.

That’s broken though. Abilities shouldn’t only exist for confirmation. And if it really existed just for confirmation, then it would be something more obvious like revealing to the entire court that X is noble(and it certainly wouldn’t only be usable during trials). It wouldn’t be a side effect.

That’s only a side effect, not the point of the ability. Lots of things are implemented poorly.

1 Like
#9

Noble Twin is so hilariously poor of an ability that if it wasn’t confirmable, it would be a waste of space as no players would actually use it.

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#10

You can’t know that. An extra vote lategame is huge. It would need a bit of a rework though to make it more usable earlygame

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#11

Polticial pressure is significantly more useful in late game. It’s a “double vote” without the need for a trial, and has additional utility that grants it a significant amount of power in several scenarios.

  • Can force reaped players to vote the reaper.
  • Can vote evils if at parity (equal members) with the evil faction. (more important in regards to the unseen)
  • Can win if a neutral sides against you and an additional vote is needed.

What I’m trying to get across here is that force vote utterly trumps the niche of Twin in every way. Cost benefit analysis shows that the only advantage of an additional vote on trial is to flip the result if it’s unfavorable. This is useful if:

  • It’s king + 2 scum vs 3 BD and you aren’t the one being voted
  • (I can’t really thing of many other scenarios)
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#12

Twin has extremely limited use at all points in the game as long as it can’t be confirmed. The confirmability is the only reason it is used now.

3 Likes
#13

Or any other situation where you would be outnumbered.

Just because it is currently only used for confirmation does not mean that it should be. I agree that it would have limited uses without the confirmation, but that’s why it needs a rework. It(and Ballot Mixing) should be replaced with this:

Bribe(Uses: 2) - Force target player to execute or pardon the accused. Affects decide fate. They will not be notified unless their vote makes a difference. Prevents them from voting or accusing for the rest of the day

Much more useful without the confirmability. It wouldn’t always confirm the noble, and even when it does confirm the noble it would only be confirmed to the bribed player

#14

I’d have the last clause removed as it is easily confirmable. If you are voted up as noble you could just use Bribe on confirmed BD or the King in order to guarantee that you are noble because not being able to vote is a loud effect that can be easily tested.

The ability to target king makes this a useful ability in several scenarios and as such makes it a worthy addition to the noble’s arsenal.

I like it

2 Likes
#15

Good concepts don’t make balanced or equally good mechanics. It is nice, flavourwise as well, but it has little to no impact in the overall game other than confirmation. Forcing Vote is a much more powerful, as stated by Geyde.

All you need is a 6 or 7 people court with 2 evils not outed to put try to confirm the Noble claim, nothing that hard. Ofc you should not waste for confirmation, but thats what already happen lol just puts an “invisible” change to that. “I vote Pard, he exes, everyone else abstain or sus”. Its agressive and the BD surely sheep.

I know it is broken, I am not defending the ability. You are. It IS the idea thou, it does not need to be “literally” confirmable to mean the point of the ability is to be confirmable. Most confirmable classes work(ed) like this, being easy to confirm but not 100%. Your argument does not make any sense.

Try to leave it to lategame when everyone says “Noble and no twin? Exe!”

#16

Do you really expect everyone, even the neuts and evils, to willingly go along? Especially if there’s cult/fools.

I was defending the concept of a double vote, not the ability itself. Check my last post here, I even made a rework.

#17

That’s a problem with the confirmation not the concept

#18

@Reaper No ability should have confirmation as its primary use since that goes against the spirit of social deduction. Using your reasoning, we should just give Noble a button which announces to someone that “Player X is a Noble.”

Bribe (Uses: 2) - Force target player to execute or pardon the accused. Affects decide fate. They will not be notified unless their vote makes a difference. Prevents them from voting or accusing for the rest of the day

I like this but remove the decide fate part, you could have up to 4 players flipping king’s vote which would make decide fate so unpredictable as to be useless.

And the prevention part should be as invisible as possible.

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#19

You don’t even understand the point that is being made if you got to that conclusion

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#20

this argument is stupid lol