Noble Changes - Snoop's OP and Maid Spy's UP

Feedback/Suggestions
#21

as I said, it has nothing to do with a SINGLE use of the ability… a SINGLE use of the ability is absolutely my word over yours. However if I have a claim of Joes logs, AND bob’s logs. and joe can vouch for my logs accuracy while I accuse bob… it’s over for bob, as there’s only 3 explanations for why I’d have multiple points of data on joe

  1. I actually can snoop
  2. Joe is in league with me, in which case we are doing an incredibly stupid play trading 2 of our own for 1 of the BD, unless this kill will completley eliminate BD coming back at us.

Scorned is off the table in explanations. joe would have shouted out the contradiction making trollbox useless.

Same reason why observer to me isn’t so balanced. 2 days worth of observer logs, are completely unfakable. Just picking any 2 people the odds that neither of them visited or were visited by any of the living people and thus the claim is guaranteed to be debunked, is effectively zero. I’d say your odds of succesfully fake claiming psychic and fake claiming observer, are both equally likely to be succesful (which is to say, neither have any rational chance of succeeding unless the majority of the BD, doesn’t know the game whatsoever).

Just on a table of confirmable/investigative here

Princess flirt = fakability 75% (easilly done by mastermind, feasible to fake anything but whisp where even a total guess in the dark has a 1 in 3 odds of being correct).

Observer = fakability = 0% (unless nightwatch) There is absolutely no rational way you can have more than 1 nights worth of logs, that can’t be contradicted by one living player. Unless someone actually buys the claim that you are terrible enough to have used peak on your first 2 days instead of following anyone

Sheriff/pali = fakability = 99%… there’s basically nothing that can trip you up on these. if you are unseen or cult you technically know the right answers, can chose whether to bus or not bus etc…

Inq Magic detection = Fakability = 99% provided BD believes there is a sorc, and there isn’t, 99%. In short, if in doubt claim magic user for anyone. You are only wrong if you claim not magic user when they really are, claiming them as a magic user it must have been dust if they aren’t. Not that this is really worth claiming in any circumstance.

Noble - snoop, confirmability 85%. This is assuming that you have 2 snoops on 2 different still alive people.

What are you meaning by codewords anyway. You don’t need codewords, just 2 days worth of logs

N1. 13 - NS
N2. 5 - NS

Assuming I didn’t already post that publicly… the odds of someone else correctly guessing that, is almost zero.

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#22

I disagree with the 0% fakeability of observer logs, but that is another topic. What nobles in game do you actually see posting whole logs? Most nobles that I have seen merely state: has princess log/has knight log or whatever. I’m not even sure if you can copy paste from your snooped logs, but I haven’t seen a single noble do that to confirm their snoop. Your snoop can be occupied or your visit can be prevented or indeed one of your snoops could have died. It is slightly more confirmable as an alch/phys heal in my opinion. I find snoop in and of itself not flawed, but it might not belong on a noble.

#23

very few, because for the most part, people don’t expend the effort to counter the accusation. 99% of accusations are true, if they aren’t true then they are generally claiming to be a class that fits into one of my examples of fakable.

If it weren’t basically unheard of to try, it would be eliminated by an even semi competent BD that would ask for the full logs and check them any time an observer outed himself and made a claim… if you’ve already done the risky thing and outed your class, why not take the 2 seconds to reveal your logs, and the way observer logs work… if it’s day 3, there’s pretty much zero chance you don’t have verifiable visits one way or the other of at least 2 living people (or if you are lying have something claimed that SHOULD be there). IE if anyone you listed visited anyone you listed, or were visited by anyone… you should know about it, whether that be the alc/knight/phys guarding them, the princess or king checking them etc…

But yeah I do agree, people have lately been playing in an extremely uncritical way and evils lately rarely ever do anything active. I’ve taken recently to doing suicide fake accusations as assasain or converted unseen, but it’s seen as such a freakish awful strategy by the community I’ve never once done it without getting yelled at by my fellow unseens (even though the unseen always goes right back to the numbers they had before after my death)

anyway you are right that we are going off topic. But the point I’m making is this only works because playerwise, scorned are the only ones ever likely to do a false accusation. If a ranked, or even a simple “vets only” mode were ever implemented, those sorts of things would be checked in a heartbeat. You are probably right currently because “bob says joe is bad, therefore joe is bad” is about as hard as anyone looks at anything right now, because evil players don’t understand that they are expendable in a conversion based system.

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#24

I love suicide accusations much more than bussing. It’s one of the best things you can do during the day.

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#25

They achieve opposite results though, why are you comparing them lol

#26

Because you do them in the same situation (as different classes).

You do it when you need to convert again as assassin.

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#27

I think that ToL could benefit from more fakeable classes and fewer unfakeable classes, but generally speaking it’s less of a problem in this game than in others because of the heavy focus on conversion-based play - nobody except the Prince is ever entirely above suspicion, and as much as people say “lol, knight claim”, you can’t really execute every single unverifiable claim.

People with unverifiable claims usually only get executed when there’s already a credible accusation against them, and at that point evils probably should get executed (the only reason a successful “difficult” claim saves them is because that claim is, well, difficult, and therefore enough to counter an accusation.)

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#28

IMO the reason it isn’t a problem, currently, is the lack of a ranked, or veterans mode. (IE a mode without new players). In town of salem, vote for roles was basically a suicide auto lose strategy in ranked practice, and low elo ranked, while in mid-high elo it easilly brought towns winrate over 90%.

It is new players and beginers in the match, that renders strategies like that as high risk. Conversion is fairly irrelevant to it. Especially if you push it early, with emphasis on finding what is most likely to be the CL or assasain, and get him jailed/occupied rather than killing him outright.

Even if you do only execute with solid evidence… you use the claims (and actually press for real logs, you should NEVER let a butler, drunk, observer etc… claim not post his logs by day 4.). Once you’ve got the 60% that more or less can’t be faked. than any investigatives left have a super narrow pool to actually have to search.

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#29

Hmm. To discourage VFR, it might be interesting to have some sort of evil roll that can kill a target at night who was voted up that day, perhaps bypassing protection (since people who claim important roles would be protected otherwise.) I’m not sure what they’d be, though - an NK would probably need other methods of killing too, and the court might rule them out by determining who the NK is early so they don’t need to worry about it.

Maybe an NK who can kill normally, but whose kills bypass all defenses and protectors if their target was voted up that day.

Or just an evil role with the king’s Decide Fate ability, but only for guilty (or, if they’re NK, it could be for anyone, since an NK isn’t really incentivized to save anyone else.) This could allow for an additional cool possibility in that the game could deliberately make it unclear whether Decide Fate was used by the king or that evil role, so an evil king could Decide and then say it was the other person (the court could demand they use their own decision, but that would waste time) - or the evil role could frame the king by Deciding an obviously innocent person guilty, which would lead the court to demand that the king waste their own Decide to show it wasn’t them. Lots of interesting possibilities and would definitely scare off VFRs a bit (imagine hitting the Hunter!)

#30

People way overestimate the necesity of putting people onto the stand, when all you need is BD to voluntarally give their claims.

only thing the trial part of it does, either here, or in town of salem… is make it gamethrowing to refuse to comply, which adds one extra layer of protection from newbies, or people who find the game being fun more important than winning.

With 1 trial a day, and a special mechanic that says any BD hitting the stand is automatically guiltied. The strategies still work assuming almost all of the BD is on par with it. You just agree to claim on request. No trial needed.

3 Likes
#31

Can you just do my job for me at this point? :stuck_out_tongue:

#32

LMAO, our views have been very similar from the start, and you convinced me on a few things (fool/jester is one I disagreed with you on until thinking about your arguements against it).

#33

I would like to point out that this means that ANYONE on the stand immediately dies. If someone other than BD is voted up then what fool would inno them?

#34

Congratulations, you’ve successfully built…

the normal voting system used in many games!

Amazing.

(And, like Vandalay said, if BD is still on board with the massclaim, that strategy still works just fine.)

#35

Collect your reward by next Tuesday. Attempting to get it later will get you shot

#36

Me_IRL

#37

Maid Spy is just ineffective

until you spy someone who becomes king the next day :joy:

3 Likes
#38

Suggested buff to Noble’s Spy: For the rest of the game you will hear whispers to and from the target, as opposed to just the next day. Snoop can be lowered to 1 use as compensation. This would make Spy significantly stronger.

1 Like
#39

You just gave me an idea I’m going to hawk

#40

It would actually be a nerf but I like it, I think spy is OP - too hard to conspire outside of night as it is, you don’t even need to be spied on for people to sus you for whispering someone that isn’t king