“If scumreading exist how is it possible that BD mislynches sometimes”
Scumreading does exist. BD do mislynch. Why does fool not get a pass from being a mislynch if it is anti-town?
Just because a lynch doesn’t kill evils, doesn’t mean it must be a mislynch.
Fool is bad currently it’s meant to reward evils? I don’t really understand the whole intention behind making Fool waste a lynch but to make it not just punish good players it also wastes a execution vote’s limited use ability which makes it more neutral sided right? Well not really considering it still wastes a whole day and it’s other effect is pretty neutral but will likely harm more BD then anything.
The whole idea around Fool is unbalanced and doesn’t reward scum reading but TOL is not balanced so I don’t really care about balance that much.
Also forgot to mention the whole extra day lynch thing is kinda dumb on day 2, as some people normally don’t lynch because they don’t want to waste two days without realising they are already wasting day 2.
I don’t think Fool is Pretender sort of bad in the way it’s unfun, unbalanced and ruins the whole king system but it’s a very underwhelming class but I know people enjoy it at least.
“that much”.
Tol isn’t balanced it would ruin the game to make it fully balanced.
1 Like
Why would it ruin the game to make it fully balanced? I’m not suggesting “Vanilla towns lol”, but you should always strive for balance and fun.
Fully balanced wouldn’t just be Vanilla towns lmao
A lot of fundamentals that make up Tol like random kings are unbalanced, Neutral spawns are super unbalanced, Prince ect. But that’s what people like about the game, with starters the whole idea around conversion isn’t balanced but it makes up the game I don’t play Tol for balance I play it for chaos.
I’m all for changing classes when needed but things like merc changes or removal of neutral King, just made the game less fun trying to balance Tol classes for competitive gameplay shouldn’t be a thing unless you want a ranked sort of mode.
I mean… it kinda would. there’s no gamebreaking strats you could really pull.
Prince isn’t unbalanced IMO. It’s goal is to be sort of a secondary lynch to the town.
If you play ToL for Chaos then fool is the perfect role for you. It’s the most bastard role apart from MM or CL.
Neut king was removed because of Pretender (Honestly don’t see a problem with Neut v Neut), and competitive gameplay is exactly what Mafia brings to the door. However if you just want a game of nonsensical chaos, go play something like WoW.
Yes someone who can easily die at anytime or be decided by one person, that’s like saying knight can be a second lynch, prince causes swing, the only reason why it works is because Cult and unseen would be OP without prince and games where prince dies early are terribly evil side, also if someone doesn’t know how to play prince it can make the game harder. ect.
Sellsword is more fun for me but I enjoy fool apart from how fool makes Day 2 not have two lynches and wastes limited abilites it’s alright I’m just speaking in terms of balance.
No Neutral king was removed because it was unbalanced neutral king was removed way before pretender was a thing. I’m not getting into the whole pretender debate I’m too tired of talking about how much I dislike that single class.
Why would I play WOW? what it’s nothing like Tol.
Alch can die at anytime and be decided by one person too, therefore Alch is unbalanced and it needs a serious revamp.
Alch also causes swing
I mean, cultseen would also be OP without alch and there are games where alch dies early and the odds are in favor of the evils, as the alch was the only healer.
If someone doesn’t know how to play alch, it can also make the game harder.
I think Alch is unbalanced.
In terms of balance, Fool is by far the least balanced, as it’s mere possibility of existence leads to many actual scum getting away because “Fool is harmless” and “Fool can’t hurt anyone”
And when the meta shifts to “Ok so anyone who is scummy at all is fool” that just puts more stress on the Prince, who executes actual evils. And instead of using the trial to acutally kill evils, it’s used to simply determine if someone is fool/scum or town.
Neutral King is not unbalanced. It’s too swingy, but it’s not unbalanced
You want to play a chaotic game. Mafia games are chaotic, but they are only chaotic because they require a messy thing called social deduction.
See https://forum.imperium42.com/t/opinion-thread-the-fool-tol/79755/137?u=jakethewolfie to outline the main problem with fool.
I think the main point that I’ve seen is that
Fool does not do this. It just makes random lynching an (obviously) bad idea. Even without a fool, random lynching is an obviously bad idea, as you tend to hit Town more often then Scum.
Also, it’s not Mislynching randomly, it’s lynching randomly. Sometimes you will get lucky and hit scum. That’s not a “Random Mislynch”
What people don’t understand in ToL is that random lynching is a bad idea. I mean, clearly they don’t. Otherwise, more town would survive to see the endgame. One prime example is that sheriff, the supposed faction hardcounter to Unseen, is the worst claim for sheriff to claim. Why? Well, because Sheriff is clearly an MM in disguise, obviously. Instead of scumreading the Sheriff, they simply say “This is a Sheriff claim. MM usually claims Sheriff. Therefore this sheriff is scum” This is not a root cause. This is a symptom of poor play, which is a symptom of the game being broken somehow.
Fool is the root cause. It punishes good scumreading. There is no reason for town to be forced to determine whether the scum is an actual evil, a fool, or some other thing. Why? Because scum is usually detrimental to town if not dealt with. And why should fool be dealt with in a special way every time?
If you truly think fool doesn’t punish good scumreading, imagine this:
The first developing strategy for fool is to sublatanly be scum. This is the obvious fool. it quickly becomes unpopular as most people realize that it’s a fool.
The evils begin to act like foolstrat v1. This is already bad, as it encourages bad play. So anyone who is obviously scummy are handled by Prince.
Then, the fools evolve into foolstrat v2. They act subtly scummy, perhaps scumslipping once. It’s obvious enough to be called out on, but not so obviously scummy that they must be a fool. This becomes slowly unpopular as most people realize the tactic.
The evils begin foolstrat v2. This is even worse, as they are purposefully acting scummy in order to be labeled as FOOL, DO NOT WORRY.
By this point, something has happened: If you scumslip even once, you are labeled as Scum and therefore are ineligible to be lynched as “They could be fool”
What is the point of the lynch anymore? It’s just a hollow threat at this point.
There’s nowhere else for fools to go but claim the most suspicious thing. This is foolstrat v3. This, like the other foolstrats, becomes unpopular as people pick up on it.
Now, if you even are something suspicious, you are a fool. This is the epitome of bad play. There’s no reading anymore. Rarely do the town win, because the evils have realized that they can abuse the meta and have the town self destruct by making people look sus, then getting them killed by the Prince. Everything has gone to shit. There is no strategy here. If you aren’t confirmed, you are automatically scum and you could be fool, therefore you get killed at night.
The root cause of all of this was the fool and how it adapted. This is how fool naturally evolves.
But yeah, it’s not a bad role.
1 Like
BD shouldn’t be punished for correctly scumreading someone
Newbies don’t need to be shielded from the game. They need to learn how to avoid getting lynched.
4 Likes
It is because once a fool is discovered, its abilities can impact little on the game (trollbox, hide, shitty frame). He is at maximum a dead man alive who can be picked by a Knight or Prince.
Compare and contrast to Sellsword, a neutral evil who is still dangerous as fuck (even more so) if it is discovered.
So the problem is with How game can be more sided towards 1 faction depending on wich neut rolls not with fool itself