Just a little reminder that ALL opinions are cool, and let’s be respectful to each other
Wasn’t Mind Control activating before other voting abilities a deliberate balance decision?
You are misunderstanding this, I’m pretty sure.
Possessor should not be able to vote on D1. That was a bug
This is not about the other days, I think.
Why do people think that removing Gossip meta is going to butcher Noble?
Gossip is still really strong past N1. I can usually confirm most real invests by the time I die as a Noble; which is as strong if not stronger than confirming supports. That one really fishy Maid claim? Ask them who they’re checking tonight. Oh wow, they showed up on gossip? Guess they’re a real Maid :^)
Losing twin is good for the health of the game because playing Noble becomes a “noble twin to confirm yourself” chore and fakeclaiming Noble is impossible. Forcevote still exists and narrows you down to Possessor/Noble/Apostle/Aristocrat anyway. Maybe the meta will involve having the Noble forcevote the Prince or something.
I do think a replacement would be nice, but I have no doubts that Noble will remain a very strong class in the right hands.
also YES PRETENDER IS GONE PARTY PARTY PARTY 
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hot take
Pretender was far from a great neutral, and I literally don’t have any feelings about it being removed whatsoever
But the extreme distaste for it is probably mostly misplaced and it was more in line with what neutrals “should” try to be difficulty-wise than most of the current ones
Obviously yeah work on the problematic spots of its purpose and mechanics but a bit of challenge is rewarding
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A big part of the issue people had with Pretender is that many Pretenders would just openclaim and then give true logs, which essentially gave BD a free powerful investigative ability for the early game with almost no counterplay (since unlike a normal Princess she was both unconvertable and death immune, and Ballot Swap let her mechconfirm herself)
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I’m aware
And that’s one of the issues I’m describing
However, from Day 1 it was also disliked for its difficulty, and I think we shouldn’t immediately discount further difficult neutrals just because Pretender was disliked for that trait.
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Clarified:
-
Possessor’s “Mind Control” is now classified as a vote ability which should stop it from enabling earlier than it was supposed to. -
Possessor’s “Mind Control” is no longer enabled on D1.
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I think merc is a better example of trying to fix Difficulty causing problems.
Pretender didn’t go very well because she failed to achieve her function in the big picture. Regardless of how hard she was she simply didn’t make trials any more interesting.
Merc however isn’t fundumentally bad, in fact in terms of his core he’s my favorite neutral class. However his brilder requirement was lowered so much that there really is no challenge and thus no reason to be proactive with his kit.
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My point is Pretender’s difficulty is much closer to what I would see as ideal than most other Neutrals
So we clearly agree but I’m not really trying to defend Pretender so much as the idea that Neutrals should be hard
And Merc is an example of making something that could be challenging decidedly not that just because
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new Observer half-follow being called Survey is kinda dumb with Surveille also being an investigative ability – it should have a more distinct name
Drunk deb feedback being fixed is good, but I’m more concerned about the bugs that haven’t been acknowledged or addressed yet – Sheriff scout triggering on convert’s abilities the night they’re converted, converts losing feedback the night they’re converted, wins not logging correctly for all cases for Sellsword or Inquisitor, Prince having bleed immunity by default for some reason etc… are these being fixed? Are the right people aware they’re broken in the first place?
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Balance : Explained
Noble unable to use Gossip on the King
Turns out being able to confirm 3+ classes that normally have great difficulty to confirm themselves is very strong. Also it limits evil fake claimability. There should be more risks to doing that if they are unable to pick King as their target.
This was really Needed, since some time, because Noble meta disallowed evil to claim to be protecting the king. it simplified the game and prevented from claiming even the simple classes, However, now, we’ll revert back to the first stage of the game. where any knight claiming to defend the king will be executed
Remove Noble/Aristocrat’s Noble Twin + Cannot Target King
Noble was extremely strong and unfun to play against. The current one allows him to confirm self at any point in the game for free.
I approve this change. Noble Twin was way too easy… and noble is still hard to claim
Pretender RIP
Due to how the meta shaped, the class is both unfun to play and unfun to play against. It’s very limiting for evils due to Blood Test and makes playing King even more of a pain than it should be.
I disapprove this change. this is way too drastic. for me.
Observer Nerfs
Observer was the strongest invest and, by using Follow , he can just get too much info. Breaking them down into separate abilities should make Obs more manageable to play against, and easier to fake claim.
In the future, we may adjust the spawn rates of Obs, but not in this patch.<
Good idea here. breaking observer. still hard to claim.
Although, can I suggest that I nightwatch and Seeker Keep their OP investigative abilities. its only normal that evils have more power then the BD.
It doesn’t say anywhere that they are being changed, so the natural assumption is that that is the case.
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Instead of completely removing Pretender wouldn’t reworking it be better? The idea of Pretender is fine, it’s problem was that it was just a neutral princess. If you’re just removing it until you can find a solution though then that’s fine.
What’s the reasoning for this?
Distant Follow should be renamed to follow, it’s a bit much. Aside from that I love it.
At the moment the tailor for Dark Dimension is identical to the tailor for Dark Wisp; so the Chronomancer would disguise themselves as a Princess.
So this is a buff.
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I’ll probably rename them both - but Follow still exists on Nightwatch, so a new name is required to prevent confusion.
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Observer getting target’s visitors should be Watch
Observer getting target’s target should be Track
Nightwatch should be Follow
imo
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None of the balance changes are bad per se but there are much more problematic classes than Pretender, Observer and Noble. Sorcerer above all and Scorned in particular. Not sure Obs needed a nerf right now (Noble certainly a welcome change, but less welcome than other broken classes).
The CW changes are confusing to determine the actual change… is the result text changing? Did not aid instead of “empowered”? The CW empowered text on the ability being unsuccessful is what I believe the most misleading text in the game.
Also a Merc nerf is pretty unnecessary. It doesn’t upset me but surely we have bigger fish to fry.