Please do NOT add a Ranked mode

Perhaps I’m in the minority here, but I feel very strongly about this. I recognize that there is currently no Ranked mode, but to my knowledge I have not seen a denial of this possibility from the devs.

Having played MOBAs as well as Town of Salem, I realize that Ranked modes significantly increase the toxicity within a community. One of the qualities I love most about Throne of Lies - and one of the central reasons I’ve switched over entirely from ToS - is the commitment to a sportsmanlike, respectful environment. It is a breath of fresh air to have developers take the culture of the community seriously and to actually punish people whose behavior ruins the experience for everyone. Ranked mode would increase competitiveness, which would increase saltiness and personal insults.

Why can’t we just have a game for fun? Why does everything have to be competitive? What is the point of adding a Ranked mode in the future?

For those who would say, “Just stick to unranked if you don’t want to deal with ELO,” I say that is avoiding the issue. Would you really say that League of Legends would be the same game were it not for their Ranked mode? If you took Ranked away, do you think the culture would be different? Of course it would. Once you add a competitive atmosphere to a game, it increases the competitiveness of players overall. Your rating - Silver, Gold, Platinum, Diamond, etc. - comes to define your identity as a player, even when playing unranked games. They’re seen as “not as serious.”

Furthermore, this is a genre that does not reward Ranked play fairly. While one has influence over the outcome of the game, much of the result is beyond one player’s control. Luck plays a role, both in class assignments as well as nighttime results, and the team A vs. team B vs. Neutrals format provides too much variation to reliably assign an ELO. In Chess, the ELO system works very well, as the white and black sides are almost totally evenly matched, and the result of the match is completely dependent upon a single player’s play, and so their resulting ELO gain or loss is the responsibility of the two players alone. Throne of Lies should view the ridiculous, highly variable nature of Town of Salem’s ELO system as a model of how not to structure the game.

I hope that these points resonate with others. Not every game has to be competitive. I’ve put 65+ hours into Throne of Lies so far and have greatly enjoyed the experience. I don’t need an ELO rating to make me feel better about my skills. I would hate to see such a unique, great community devolve into the competitive, self-advancing, toxic environment that is Ranked systems.

Now back to intrigue and lies!
-TinyDeer

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Personally, I have always felt that breeding competition is the best way to ensure a game’s long-term success through player retention. Games such as Rainbow Six: Siege would have died long ago if not for dedicated players pushing the boundaries of the game’s meta and keeping a competitive spirit alive within the community. In Siege’s case in particular, their dedicated community was met with dedicated developers who together pulled the game back from the brink of death to become one of today’s largest first-person shooters with a continuously growing playerbase that is many times larger than it was at launch.

This same competitive spirit has managed to keep Town of Salem relevant, despite a painfully slow update cycle that sees balance changes every couple months and new roles around once a year. Many players stuck around for so long because of the game’s Ranked mode, and many still play it to this very day. Without Ranked, ToS would likely have been a flash-in-the-pan browser game instead of the veritable juggernaut it has become in the real-time Mafia space.

The ability for players to compete with others of the same general skill level and vie to improve can often be paramount to the experience of playing a game. Without a competitive mode, it is likely that many of the industry’s giants wouldn’t still be here today. Sure, things like Overwatch might survive based purely on fun throwaway matches, but massive games like CounterStrike: Global Offensive would have surely been surpassed by more modern takes on their formula if not for competition drawing players back to improve.

However, dedicating your game’s identity to a competitive mode can have its downfalls. As you have noted, the community of a game can suffer if players become over-competitive, and although this can be helped through dedicated and active moderation of your playerbase, I will admit that those with absolutely no drive whatsoever to improve as players can feel swarmed by those who become angry if they aren’t winning. And while this is unfortunate, I would argue that, in general, many games stand to gain more through breeding competition than leaving it out.

Throne of Lies is not one of those games.

The issues are foundational; conversions in a game of Mafia are notoriously hard to balance and almost always end up extremely overpowered or entirely useless. Even though ToL manages to mostly dodge this issue from being built from the ground up for conversions, the other issues conversion games are plagued with are still present, and will only be exacerbated in a competitive environment.

Have you ever been leading the town, finding multiple evil classes and leading the Blue Dragon to victory, just to be converted by the last remaining Cultist before being executed and losing the game to an unstoppable show of force you yourself orchestrated? If so, you’re already familiar with the single largest issue conversions will cause in a competitive environment (excepting problems relating to balance). Being able to completely change teams partway through a match will render any attempt at rating player skill borderline meaningless. A player solidly leading the BD may be converted and lose, and an inept player actively harming the BD may be converted and win. Despite neither of these players remotely deserving their outcome, the game’s conversion mechanic will see this happen decently often, especially since good players are also good conversion targets.

Side note: Although there may be requests for a ranking system based on player actions rather than wins and losses to help overcome this issue, this remains a poor solution at best. Overwatch is the only large game in recent memory to attempt such a system, and they have been constantly plagued with issues regarding how many skill points are given out to whom and for what. They also recently announced that matches between their most competitive players (Diamond and up) will move to a different system based on wins and losses over what the algorithm decides is “skill”, so I think it’s fair to say that it’s essentially a failed experiment whose only real value is keeping decent healers out of Elo hell.

In addition, several other balance issues stand in the way of making a truly competitive mode. If players start to hone their skill at finding scum, classes like the Fool (and, to a lesser extent, the Scorned) stand in direct conflict with the goals of the player. If you are able to figure out that somebody probably isn’t BD through what they are saying, and you execute them and were correct, you should be rewarded for your good play. The Fool instead punishes this deduction, turning what should be optimal play (finding and executing scum) into a mistake. Mechanics such as these should never be included in a Ranked setting, as they punish good players and allow bad ones the crutch of acting like a Fool if they aren’t skilled enough to act like BD.

Throne of Lies also has another reason to avoid competitive modes entirely: the core gameplay is fun and varied enough to keep players around without requiring such a mode. Although the genre isn’t for everybody, ToL allows players to take the game at their own pace and improve on their own time. By being a more casual playing experience, the issues discussed above may actually help ToL survive. Removed from a ranking system, conversions and crazy roles can be interesting and entertaining enough to ensure that no two games are the same and no single strategy can be relied on, and you never know what is going to happen when you queue up next. The introduction of two antagonists, randomly selected between, also boost’s ToL’s impressive variety even farther. Few games can match the pure web of possibilities ToL brings to the table.

On top of this, the developers have chosen to make community input a large part of their decision making. This allows players to truly feel like they are part of the game as a whole rather than just part of their individual matches. This simply wouldn’t be possible if balance decisions had to cater to high-skilled and knowledgeable players over everybody else. And while I may not personally appreciate every decision made to appease the crowd rather than improve the game, I will admit that a large part of ToL’s charm comes from the investment casual players are allowed to have in the direction imperium42 takes the game (a factor that may just be enough to replace the desire to keep playing that a competitive mode is normally required to supply).

With all of these foundational issues, I simply cannot recommend that Throne of Lies join the ranks of games with a competitive gamemode. Although it would be possible to accomplish such a task, in this case the many varied drawbacks far outweigh any benefits it would gain. Throne of Lies is already varied enough to retain players, and the attempt to make such a non-competitive game functional in that space would either end horribly or become a massive sinkhole of time and resources to completely change or overhaul key game systems specifically so people like me can have a bit more fun competing. All in all, I just don’t find it worth it at all, and I can only hope that the developers agree with people like you and me.

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Holy moly. If you aren’t already, I hope you would consider becoming a writer. Thank you for your detailed, thoughtful, and even-handed response. (It helps that I agree with almost everything you wrote!)

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Although I get what your argument is: Elo doesn’t work well in Social Deduction and Conversation just makes it worse. There is also a big problem with this game that a ranked mode would solve: New players and players that just want to mess around are being placed with people that just want to win.

That being said there is a way to help fix this problem without dealing with the ELO problem.

You could have 2 types of lobbys: Casual lobbys which is what we have now and Veteran lobbys which you can only join after you have met certain requirements but afterwards can use as much as you like without the possablety of being kicked out.

There are lots of things that could be used as requrements. I would suggest these conditions: Play at least 50 games and win at least 2 times with each faction (BD, Unseen, Cult, NK).

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I agree that a so-called “Veteran Lobby” could be useful, and I’d play the hell out of it, but it may cause newer players to be unprepared for the veteran mode when they meet the requirements. Without experienced players to teach them, newbies will often stay new. It’s a balancing act for sure. :stuck_out_tongue:

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This I fully agree with. I personally see absolutely no workaround for competitive mode, avoiding elo hell etc… Just a general rule of thumb, a team is only as good as it’s weakest member, and the cycle is very obvious, you get bad teams in the placements, you get worse teams in the future, meaning more losses, meaning worse teams etc…

That being said I do also agree, a vet vs noob divide is certainly one that I would like. again I hold to the statement that in a game like ToL, the worse player in a game has 10x more ability to drag it’s team into the ground, than the best player has in ability to lift it up, which definently gets frustrating when you are an experienced player, basically knowing the answer, it’s obvious to an experienced players, then you get killed by the prince who just doesn’t understand the logic you are working with.

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I’m only still holding out from buying this game because it doesn’t have a ranked mode, I was ready to donate to the kickstarter until I saw it wasn’t even planned. Even if this is a better game than ToS, I don’t much care if there is nothing to play for. Town of salem unranked was terrible both before and after they added ranked, and hardly anyone ever took it serious.

I guess ranked doesn’t appeal to everyone, but look at it this way. A game without it is basically just a pinball type game you play to kill time, and a game with it is something worth investing time into improving, learning, mastering, grinding, etc.

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I think they are adding ranked no matter what.

Just wait, I guess.

I am not really sure.

Are you very sure about it?

You could still improve your skill at there.

The game is about fun, not about competitive.

Isn’t all the game’s goal is that?


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Did you read my post? Trust me, although I’d normally agree, Ranked would not work in this game. Rather, we’ll probably get Veteran lobbies or something similar at some point, which will allow you to seek the same improvement but without a lot of the drawbacks Ranked would cause.

Either way, don’t let that be the reason you don’t get Throne of Lies. I have a distinct feeling that, much like myself, you may well find that the game is fun enough on its own to be worth the money. Plus, you’re going to be a newbie no matter when you join. :stuck_out_tongue:

Community-run tournaments like @lunamink’s (which is in under a week btw) can help satiate any hyper-competitiveness you may have, and all in all ToL is a great value proposition for $10 if you already have prior experience and enjoy playing real-time Mafia games (which it sounds like you do).

The devs are adding ranked. Get the game now so you won’t be a noob when it comes out.

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Comp can be so toxic, (look at CS:GO and OW) so I think you should have to pass a test to play ranked. Like you aren’t a fucking idiot test

Source?

As in one from under several months ago.

The devs have repeatedly stated it. They never backed down on these statements later and they are active enough that I would expect them to do so if they changed their mind.

It’s also been several months since they have said anything about the feature, which would lead me to hope that it has been rightly dropped, potentially in favor of a system more akin to “Veteran Lobbies”.

Unfortunately on the steam forums, I’ve found more statements to the opposite… IE they don’t want to impliment a “veterans mode” because too many modes will divide the player base too much and ranked is intended down the line as the only planned split. trying to find the post but I believe it was a month or 2 ago at the most.

Personally, I think a Ranked mode is a terrible idea. The current community is excellent. Ranked modes in a game like Throne of Lies, meanwhile, lead to lots of problems:

  1. Your success is often not contingent on your own actions, and can vary a lot based on luck (what roles are present, what people do in the first few nights when they have little information, etc.) This is especially true when everyone in the game is low-skill, of course - so this tends to result in something like the Town of Salem “low ELO hell” that anyone can fall into at any time. At the same time, you still end up with some complete idiots at high ranks, defeating the purpose of a ranked mode.

  2. It distorts the game’s balance. People who obsess over their ELO are going to want to be able to control as much of each game as possible, even if it reduces strategic depth - look at Town of Salem again, where the Ranked list has steadily had roles removed from it and become more and more generic as the game progressed. This would be bad enough on its own, but then Ranked players demand that the game’s balance be designed around this crippled Ranked role list, which damages every other mode. And even if you resist their demands, the game becomes harder to balance with so many different modes and role lists.

  3. It splits the player base, leading to longer wait times in every mode.

  4. Because people are terrified of losing ELO and falling into low-ELO hell, high-ranked play becomes very repetitive and uninteresting - people use the same proven strategies again and again, and anyone who deviates sees the rest of the group rapidly turn against them (which is fatal in a social game.) Ranked play is strategically less interesting due to the constraints it places on experimentation - people decide on what the “proper” way to play the game is and force out everything else.

  5. The obsession with maintaining that number leads players to treat each other more harshly, both within and outside of games. Additionally, Ranked players themselves feel comfortable expressing open contempt towards other game modes (and, again, will insist that only Ranked matters when discussing balance, which is foolish when other modes still make up a huge part of gameplay.) While moderation can help with this to an extent, there are limits to what it can accomplish when the basic structure of a ranking system pushes players towards toxicity.

  6. It slows new additions and balance changes, since Ranked players will reflexively oppose anything that disrupts the established, stultified modes of play - after all, that’s what got them to where they are, and they’re terrified that a change could dump them into low-ELO hell. Those few suggestions that do get support will inevitably be ones that make the game more predictable or more boring, since, again, what Ranked players want is not a fun game but one that they can reliably grind to maintain their ranking.

Ranked play is poisonous. It’s not necessary, it wouldn’t improve the gameplay or strategic depth of the game at any level, it would divide the player base and it makes development painfully difficult going forwards. Don’t do it. Players reflexively demand it because they’ve seen it elsewhere, but if you look at Throne of Lies’ gameplay right now, in the one mode we have, it is as good as or superior to Ranked play in Town of Salem’s highest levels - which is unsurprising, since everything about Ranked play discourages interesting gameplay.

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Ok so it sounds like if you fix the Elo hell problem then ranked is fine. If such a solution exists would you then be fine with ranked?

No shit they will want to control it, if they can control the flow of the game they can win easier, using DbD as an example, if the killer late game can pull off a three gen strat, it becomes nearly impossible without SOMEHOW SAVING A BRAND NEW PART to do one more gen to escape, if the killer can’t control the late game like this the survivors have better odds. (Same goes with Hex:Ruin early game to buy yourself time for the late game)

Just look at CS:GO comp and DbD Killer, it exists every where there are more than 1 game mode.

It’s a thing, ELO hell is a thing. Even in DbD It scares the shit out of me if I depip.

100% agree here, at high ranks in DbD pallet looping is an epidemic.

If you playtest things cough R8 Revolver cough it wouldn’t be a problem. I don’t mind slow updates if they are quality

Low ranked ranked is poisonous due to toxicity and other things

It is if ToL wants to survive, look at ToS it is still alive after many years due to it’s ranked and other game modes. (AND THEIR BS CARDGAMES)

We demand it, as we want to have some stakes in-game. Right now there is none.

So TL;DR ranked is necessary for the long life of this game

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Ok so it sounds like if you fix the Elo hell problem then ranked is fine. If such a solution exists would you then be fine with ranked?

It’s not a fixable problem; other games have uselessly torn apart their mechanics and reassembled them in all sorts of ridiculous configurations and have gotten nowhere. The reason it can’t be fixed is because trying to “fix” it goes against the basic concept of ranks - the whole reason people want ranked is because they want higher ranks to mean something; and that can only be done by (attempting to) dump worse players into lower ELO brackets. In team games, ELO hell is a feature of ranked, not a bug. The fact that it sucks for almost everyone as a result is unavoidable.

No shit they will want to control it, if they can control the flow of the game they can win easier, using DbD as an example, if the killer late game can pull off a three gen strat, it becomes nearly impossible without SOMEHOW SAVING A BRAND NEW PART to do one more gen to escape, if the killer can’t control the late game like this the survivors have better odds. (Same goes with Hex:Ruin early game to buy yourself time for the late game)

My point is that the burning, endless thirst that ranked players have for controlling the game is a terrible thing. Making the game more controlled means taking away strategies and making every game more similar. Ranked players - in every game that has them, without exception - routinely push for terrible ideas that ought to be ignored; but because catering to ranked shifts the game towards that audience, you end up with that games governed by that obsessive need to control every variable (to have each game be completely predictable and solvable with the same mechanical strategies, again and again.)

Unpredictability is a vital part of the game; once you start encouraging players to fixate on win / loss ratios, you’re setting up a section of your audience that will always be hostile to it and who will want every single game to play out the same boring way. Ranked players care more about their stupid meaningless numbers than about whether the game is fun or not, and therefore should never, ever be given any weight in suggestion or balance discussions.

If you playtest things cough R8 Revolver cough it wouldn’t be a problem. I don’t mind slow updates if they are quality

And there you have it. “Slow down updates! Test everything for six months! Don’t do anything that could threaten my precious, precious numbers!” That mentality is exactly why they should never, ever implement a Ranked mode. You’re asking for everyone else - regardless of what mode they play, because all modes have to use the same mechanics - to have their updates dramatically slowed so you can maintain your meaningless internet points.

You’re not even trying to hide it - Ranked hasn’t even been implemented yet, it might never get implemented, you’re in a discussion where logically you’d be trying to argue that it wouldn’t cost anyone else anything in order to try and quell some of the objections top it - and instead you’re already demanding that anyone who plays other modes make serious sacrifices so you can maintain your meaningless internet points.

I have a better idea: They never implement Ranked. They spend that time improving the game, instead. Then they roll out new ideas rapidly, and if they don’t work, they roll them back just as rapidly - which they’ll be able to do, in a world where meaningless internet points aren’t a thing and they don’t have hundreds of players obsessed with their ELO breathing down their neck.

It is if ToL wants to survive, look at ToS it is still alive after many years due to it’s ranked and other game modes. (AND THEIR BS CARDGAMES)

ToL is doing amazing as-is. There’s no reason to try and cater to the exact same audience as everyone else, especially an audience as toxic as ranked players. Additionally, if you’ve actually looked at ToS, they’ve recently devoted almost all their resources to stupid, pointless tinkering with Ranked, all driven by the endless whining of players who don’t care anything about the impact of the things they’re requesting beyond how it influences their meaningless internet points.

We demand it, as we want to have some stakes in-game. Right now there is none.

There are no meaningful stakes in any game (outside of the game sucking if your ELO drops too much, which is supposedly not a feature - ha ha ha.) It’s a game. The purpose is to have fun. The only risk is that you might not have fun. Let go of your obsession with Internet Points and just enjoy it. You shouldn’t need the game patting you on the back and telling you what an awesome player you are to have fun with a game like this.

Beyond that… you’re playing the game now, as it is. So these internet points can’t be as important as you think they are. If they just hold fast and don’t implement it, maybe people will start to get cured of their obsession with it, and other games can point to this one to show that that sort of ranking isn’t necessary in a game of this nature.

So TL;DR ranked is necessary for the long life of this game

It’s doing fine now. If it starts to nosedive, I suppose they can consider it as a desperation move, but I don’t think that will happen.

Look at the R8 Revolver in CS:GO, that changed everything for all of 48 hours. It launch it had the same base damage as the AWP. Thats my prime example of people not play testing things that could hugely impact the game. Small balance fixes and such is fine, but not huge things that could change balance hugely.

The one thing I don’t like is how you talk down to people who want ranked and like ranked like they are try hard babies

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