I have combined all the reworks into one thread:
THIS WAY PLEASE
https://forum.imperium42.com/t/loads-of-reworks-class-reworks-and-suggestions/45466
This would be a great shuffle, and super easy to do
However, the other Priest abilities aren’t good ideas imo
Look again? And elaborate please?
This is how we build up and perfect; with lots of feedback
Night immune BD isn’t something I support, and the universal unlimited backup seems incredibly powerful.
Okay, I was keeping it up to date with the old Priest before it got taken away.
And what would you suggest instead of Wield Soul? Or how would you change the parameters and the ability?
Psychic: Redundant to Prince still. Better with no Call of the Dead. See here.
I am okay with Physician changes, but Exhume is more of an investigative ability.
Priest: Reanimate works. Bind Soul is one time Phys, rather not have that. Wield Soul is good. It would be better if it could be converted, since each conversion immune person makes it harder for Unseen/Cult.
I’d also personally limit the number of times you could use each dead person. I have one way to do that here.
I really think Priest should be guaranteed.
Oh God
Didn’t even see that
Priest should be neither guaranteed nor unconvertible
Okay got it, but then what ideas do you have for conversion? Which Heretic are we using
And @NightX I don’t know about a whisper Psychic though because it seems too niche and a bit too useless to properly work consistently
Better than current Psychic, which is redundant. Also a Whisper Psychic would be serve the same purpose as Maid Spy does, which works well for Noble, and Private Matter helps avoiding looking too helpful and making yourself a target for evils. Also Illusionist could help coordinate with Mercenaries, Alchemists, Sorcerers, Fools, Scorned, etc.
Anyways, whispers hold a lot of power. I have seen many games in which they outed the unseen. It is far from a useless ability.
Also, I imagine Heretic/Soulcatcher/Whatever could also use the Dead’s powers, just like Priest.
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I don’t like splitting Call the Dead from the Psychic’s powers. The interaction between it and Link Minds is interesting, leads to more useful communication, and can occasionally backfire on the Psychic if they link with someone evil and end up leaking info from the dead to them as a result.
Overall this feels like it’s cramming too many changes into one suggestion.
Also, this would add a new unique role. I feel that’s a mistake - unique roles should be avoided, since they inherently limit claimspace.
I don’t really feel the claims space is a problem, you could probably drive a truck through it.
What on earth would an evil do with information from the dead? It’s really just one suggestion, just a few things would have to change to fit it.
Also, Psychic’s power already sucks. Prince does it better.
I don’t really feel the claims space is a problem, you could probably drive a truck through it.
Really? Going over the list of possible claims for someone who didn’t start as BD, I’d sort them into “easy” (can’t be contradicted without outside information), “difficult” (requires a will that can people can confirm or contradict; or people can demand that you prove, but it takes a night or has costs) and “impossible” (can prove immediately, requires a will that can’t reasonably be faked, or is a suicidal claim for other reasons.)
Easy: CW, Knight, Sheriff / Paladin.
Difficult
Physician / Alchemist: Works at first but falls apart as soon as anyone dies of poison / bleeding.
Princess: Requires will with flirt results (although MM can do that); can be asked to use WoW.
Butler: Requires a list of occupies, can be asked to poison king.
Drunk: Requires list of debs.
Hunter: Often called out by real hunter; gets asked to bleed people; gets you killed if real Hunter dies.
Impossible:
Observer: Will is flatly not reasonable to fake.
Prince: Immediately gets you executed by the real prince. Requires will with jail record anyway.
Psychic: Will impossible to fake, can instantly prove themselves in multiple ways.
Noble: Can instantly prove themselves by making someone vote.
…that’s not enough. Since only one of Sheriff / Paladin exists in a game, there’s only three really “easy” claims, plus maybe the Princess and Physician, who are borderline but noticeably more dangerous. And ToL has at least three roles who collect claims, so not claiming is rarely an option.
My feeling is that most of the time, contradicting a claim should require a degree of coordination and trust among the BD, not just “knight claim lol, gg.” It’s bad enough that the claims that are reasonably usable for starting evils are often lynched on sight, especially in the late game. (Demanding that all Knights yolo CS immediately has also become increasingly common.)
There can be more than one.
Also usually you claim what you used to be, and that solves your claim space problem. And even if a class is unique, they can converted. I wouldn’t mind some more easy claims, but there is stuff to work with.
There can be more than one.
What I mean is, only one of those two types of classes can be present in the game, so you can’t claim both. That effectively means there are only three “easy” claims. (If they were unique, I’d bump it to “difficult” immediately - this is part of why I’m so strongly against unique Sheriffs.)
Also usually you claim what you used to be, and that solves your claim space problem. And even if a class is unique, they can converted. I wouldn’t mind some more easy claims, but there is stuff to work with.
You can’t do that as a Mastermind, starting Assassin, NK, or Scorned. And those roles need claimspace, too (especailly the Mastermind, since having them caught is fairly catastrophic for the Cult, and the NK, whose “side” is over when they’re caught.) It’s slightly less of an issue for the Scorned because they can try and win before everyone claims, but IMHO the game is still better when more valid claims exist for people to lie about.
(This also means that BD can generally conclude that someone who claims a difficult role is probably either that role or its converted version, and anyone who claims an impossible role is definitely that role or its converted version. I don’t think being able to make such a decisive conclusion from a claim is a good thing; it’s a game of trust and deception, so there needs to be more room to lie or to distrust people. And every new “hard to claim” role that gets added increases the overall change that courts will be stacked with people whose claims are straightforward and unlikely to be fake, aside from them maybe being converted - which narrows MM / NK claimspace further.)
Even so, Priest pretty much has to be Unique, since otherwise the Priests can just learn each others identities, and realize if the other one is converted.
Also Possessor has a pretty good Noble claim. As long as you can do the whispers, they usually don’t ask for vote manipulation. Sheriff/Paladin is also a pretty effective claim since it lacks the same suspicion as Knight or CW, and your logs usually are technically true.
Plus, Priest as unique wouldn’t limit claim space, since CW, Knight, Paladin and Sheriff still exist. Just doesn’t add new claim space.
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But I will say this: Psychic allows for night communications with the person on the other end working with them and using their abilities. Prince jails them, so they need other nights to confirm or act.
Each is distinct.
But I agree, Noble does need some reworking.
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