Prince needs a nerf

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

Prince is problematic now for a few reasons:

1: The Prince is powerful with no means of defense

This can lead to two scenarios:

  • Prince just claims day 1, and he basically replaces the King, as he is confirmed and the Prince isn’t. This makes it so that the King is irrelevant.
  • The Prince can’t out himself, because he is afraid the evils will kill him, if they have some measure to remove him that his hard to stop. This makes the game swingy, as if the Prince dies early, it’s like if 3 blue dragon have died.

2: The Prince is practically many classes combined

While most of the time the Prince acts in certain ways, the fact is they are better than any number of classes than what the class is supposed to be good at.

Butler? Prince ignores immunity.
Physician? Even Reapers can’t get past Prince.
Court Wizard? Does the exact same thing.
Psychic? Exact same function.

Basically Prince is a better version of all these classes, in addition to Execute.

3: Another unconvertible for evils to deal with

Prince is so powerful it needs to be unconvertible, lest the Evils have too much power. This makes it harder for the evils to convert people in general.

My suggestion:

Prince

Blue Dragon Killer

Passive: Unstoppable

Passive: Royal Blood

Day Ability: Imprison: Select a player. You will jail them tonight, allowing you to speak with and execute them. Does not stop them from taking action, or prevent actions from being taken on them.

Night Ability: Execute: Kill the person you are jailing, bypassing Immunity and healing. If you would kill a member of the Blue Dragon, you commit suicide instead. 3 uses.

Heir

Unseen Offensive

Passive: Unstoppable

Passive: Royal Blood

Day Ability: Imprison: Select a player. You will jail them tonight, allowing you to speak with and execute them. Does not stop them from taking action, or prevent actions from being taken on them. You will be unable to speak to the Unseen if you use this.

Night Ability: Lock Up: Occupy your jailed target, and prevent all visits to them. 3 uses.

Of course, Psychic would need to be changed to a different class, so I’m just going to bring up a suggestion I have already made:

Psychic :shield:

Blue Dragon Social

Passive: Astral Network: You may speak to anyone you have linked with anonymously at night. They can also talk to each other. Anyone in jail cannot hear or speak using the chat. This passive will remain if your class changes.

Day Ability: Focus Link: Reset the cool down for Alter Link. 2 uses.

Day Ability: Telepathy: Send an anonymous message to everyone. 2 uses.

Night Ability: Alter Link: Target player is immediately added to the astral network. If they are already in the astral network they are immediately removed. The network cannot have more than 4 other players at once. Unlimited uses. 1 day cool down.

Illusionist :shield:

Unseen Social

Passive: Astral Network: You may speak to anyone you have linked with anonymously at night. They can also talk to each other. Anyone in jail cannot hear or speak using the chat. This passive will remain if your class changes.

Passive: Skilled: You can use both night abilities in the same night.

Day Ability: Focus Link: Reset the cool down for Alter Link. 2 uses.

Day Ability: Telepathy: Send an anonymous message to everyone. 2 uses.

Night Ability: Alter Link: Target player is immediately added to the astral network. If they are already in the astral network they are immediately removed. The network cannot have more than 4 other players at once. Unlimited uses. 1 day cool down.

Night Ability: Read Mind: Get a copy of your target’s logs. Infinite uses.

#2

Okay, maybe if prince the roles could act on other imprisoned but IF YOU WERE IN JAIL HOW WOULD SOME ONE FUCKING STAB THEM

2 Likes
#3

Sneaking in, for one.

The lore is irrelevant either way.

#4

With the prince watching???

#5

While I can see Prince needing a nerf I would like to bring up a few things:

#1 Prince being powerful adds to the game more than he takes away. This particular fact is only a problem if he dies early game. Late game his death is often the result of either good planning for scum or poor planning for BD.

#2 If Prince is convertible then no one can be trusted. Having 1 or 2 people that can be trusted gives you a baseline to compare things to for better or worse. If there is 2 (like with old sheriff/pally) then if they find each other and begin to conspire you again get interesting game play.

With these 2 things in mind observe my suggestion:

Prince :crossed_swords: :shield:

Blue Dragon Special

Passive 1: Unstoppable - Prevent any visits to you from the player in jail. Imprison cannot be stopped by anything.
Passive 2: Royal Blood

Day ability: Imprison - Jail target player. They will be occupied tonight and you will prevent all visits to them. You may speak with them anonymously (Unlimited)

Night ability: Execute - Kill the jailed player. Bypasses night immunity and healing. You will loose remaining executions if you kill a BD. (3 uses)

How is this a nerf?

1: Occupy stops Execute
2: Occupy immunity lets you act in jail (but not to kill the prince)
3: If an evil finds someone as special for any reason they will know 100% that they are prince making him easier to find.

Does this solve the problem entirely? No, we still need to do something to make him less swingy early game. Defensive ability? Defensive passive?

However this does give him more counterplay and make him less punishing for NK/MM when they are jailed randomly.

#6

Basically you want to take everything that makes the Prince good:

Confirmability
Unconvertability
He can prevent you from acting
He can protect people
He can Kill anyone

And then remove everything ELSE:

He can’t be occupied.
He bypasses occ immunity

#7

Having a powerful class that evils need to kill is an interesting mechanic. It means evils also need to analyse day chats to discover prince. I’d be in favour of prince losing his occupy immunity and leave it at that.

4 Likes
#8

BTW. I mentioned how 1 reason why Prince needed changes was because of swing. So here is 2 more changes that could be made:

Day ability 2: Protective custody - You will be night immune tonight (1 use)

Night ability: Execute - Kill the jailed player. Bypasses night immunity. Blablabla dont kill BD. (3 uses)

Basically Protective custody should be fine because you can’t jail if you are using it (and its straight forward to bypass because it’s regular immunity). Late game it would always be better to just Jail instead and kill the person that would attack you instead. This means you will almost always use it N1 or N2. Alternatively we could make it a N1-2 immunity in the Unstoppable passive.

The other change was to make it not bypass healing. This is important for the reaper who can self heal as now if the reaper has 3 or more souls you will need to call him out in the day which puts you at risk.

#9

That is how reaper used to work in early alpha if I remember correctly. I liked it but many people thought it was kinda clunky.

#10

Well then those people can speak up now.

#11

Confirm ability is rarely good. Besides, it still would be as you could execute someone.
Butlers and Drunks are for preventing you from acting
Physicians are for protecting people

#12

It probably wouldn’t even out prince now though, as now king is almost always good the meta would be to just whisper king who is reaper and king to announce it.

#13

This is one of those rare times where it IS good.

Ever heard of the Jailkeeper? He give target player night immunity but roleblocks them. He’s actually a fairly interesting role with lots of versatility that also solves a lot of the problems with standard roleblocker’s and healers (IE: While he has a lot of versatility on his own it is hard for other roles to play off it). Point being this particular combination of uses in this way is different from the sum of their parts.

1 Like
#14

Separate issue. Also if the Empower change we wanted goes through then he could empower reap the king through jail (remember I made imprison not prevent occ immune classes from acting and the empower buff we wanted made him occ immune on those nights).

#15

Maybe. I do tend to follow the line of thought that simplicity is key when balancing classes though.

#16

When you think of it this is. All of these suggestions mostly just remove the special mechanics of jail and replace it with more standard ones (Jailed player can’t do anything -> Jailed player is occupied.) From there everything else is emergent game play. (Reaper uses empower to reap while in jail).

There is nothing complicated about not bypassing healing. There is nothing complicated about occupy and there is nothing complicated about prevention. And there is nothing complicated about occ immunity. What can be complicated is all of these things at once all acting together.

#17

I think the only change that should be made is that Prince loses his occupy/redirect immunity. He does need a counterplay, and BD Offensives should learn that random occupying may not be the best idea. Also, Servants and Butlers get their own niche this way.

3 Likes
#18

This isn’t just a jailkeeper, though. While Jailkeeper alone seems okay, but the Prince/Jailor is really OP.

It’s a Psychic, Physician, Court Wizard and Butler all in one. Two of those would be probably be a bit over powered. But this is all four.

How is it good on the Prince?

Confirm-ability without fakability or convertibility is basically a good King.

#19

Prince is supposed to be BD’s leader. To do that he needs to be: confirmable (so that he doesn’t need to worry about proving himself and can focus more on what to do with everyone else) and also BD (hence unconvertability and why psychic can’t be this and why Hunter isn’t quite this).

So what does Good King have on prince? 4-6 shot night immunity.

1 Like
#20

I personally feel that the only nerf Prince needs is to lose his occupy/redirect immunity. (Restating)