if lore is irrelevant then why doesn’t scorned get new targets if their previus targets die?
I’m dodging your final conclusion, since there’s nothing productive to be said about it.
Because balance.
Then i’ll throw something back at you.
People being able to do actions in jail would be unbalanced
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It does remove the swing though. Your version is both overpowered and underpowered. Overpowered because it can survive multiple attacks, underpowered because it isn’t as useful in cult/reaper games
I don’t think it’s possible to completely remove swinginess, anyway. I’m not sure it would even be desirable - some variation is a good thing, since we don’t want every game to play out the same way. Reducing swinginess too far makes the game predictable and less strategically deep.
Beyond that, I want to go for a minimal change that will significantly reduce swinginess without requiring a total overhaul of the Prince (I feel that, for the most part, the Prince works pretty well.) Many of the things people are suggesting here could break things. A common-but-not-guaranteed source of a backup Prince via the Princess is safe, and would drastically reduce the chance of random chance screwing things up. Yes, sometimes the Prince gets randomly killed and you have no Princess. Sometimes both would die in a row. Sometimes all your investigatives die or get converted. We can’t eliminate unpredictability, we can just try and get it under control. The need to maintain secrets and retain a variety of ways for the game to play out means that sometimes a game like ToL is more like Poker than Chess - that is to say, you have to be able to figure out a way to deal with a bad hand.
Our goal should be to improve the average game, not to make BD-unfavorable games impossible. Trying to remove bad luck entirely would almost certainly break something due to the extreme nature of the changes it would require.
Some things to consider, though:
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We absolutely, positively do not want to encourage the Prince to reveal. Having the Prince be revealed should almost always be catastrophic for BD, and that means the Prince must have absolutely no way to protect himself. (TBH the existing BD protectives are already too good in this respect and are causing many of the problems people are talking about.) This rules out giving the Prince vests. The damage that would do to the meta would be a lot worse than the occasional random Prince deaths that we suffer now. One easy way to avoid this problem is to put the Prince in a situation where he doesn’t know for certain whether it’s safe for him to take risks early on or not.
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Having a killer waste a night by hitting an immune is also swingy (and, therefore, introducing more immune roles leads to swinginess of another sort.) For the most part, it buys BD another day.
EDIT: Although one worry I had about my suggestion (which I meant to mention) is that it could make it hard to fakeclaim Princess if the Prince died early. Claiming Princess in that situation would mean that you’re asserting that there were two Princesses, that one turned into the Prince, and that you’re the other one (since any non-gamethrowing Princess would become Prince if another one didn’t do it first.) People will ask who was jailed, and if nobody was jailed, you hang. If there were actually two princesses, the one who didn’t turn Prince speaks up and you hang. If the second princess died, you can’t claim Princess anymore. etc, etc, etc. Essentially you could only claim Princess in that situation if there was exactly one Princess before. Or if the Princess got converted, but in that case you’re stealing her claimspace! Anyway, maybe I’m overthinking it, but it’s a consideration.
Also, to answer the main premise of the thread… the Prince needs to be unusually powerful because that helps make the decisions by evil killers more important. Several of the Cult / Unseen investigative abilities exist primarily to help them find the Prince, for instance. This also rewards killers for playing cleverly over attacking blindly. And it rewards BD who managed to get protectives onto the most important roles, too. If we make every BD role equally powerful, a lot of the strategy around choosing targets vanishes. So I don’t think the Prince needs to be nerfed (at least, not based on that logic.)
Or, in other words… it’s bad for the game to swing because the Prince was killed at random, sure. But it’s very good for the game to swing because the Prince was killed intentionally by an evil who successfully identified him, and giving evils the ability to drastically change the course of the game by finding the Prince is worth the risk of the Prince occasionally dying in the first few nights. The fact that a large portion of the BD’s power is concentrated in one class rather than being distributed evenly is a feature, not a bug, and it serves a vital purpose in the meta by setting an interesting goal for evils that rewards clever play by both sides.
Not that we can’t try and find ways to minimize the swinginess of random deaths, of course; and I suppose I could be convinced about particular aspects of the Prince being problematic (as I said above, we definitely want to ensure that they’re discouraged from revealing.) But the goal should be to retain the pressure on evils to find the Prince as soon as possible, which generally means that the Prince ought to be the most powerful BD class.
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I always took Prince to be one of the most balanced classes in the game.
And thanks Braixen. You took the words out of my mouth.
Prince should not be changed. End of story.
Prince being underpowered is the fucking point of a Jailkeeper style class.
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I have an idea.
Make prince immune to death for the first two nights.
However, make Prince also immune to healing(including healing of Bleeding and Nightshade)
My fucking god.
There is no fucking need to buff or nerf prince.
My god you BD, it is just bad luck if your Prince is dead n1.
and now for an announcement of a lifetime
YOU CAN WIN WITHOUT YOUR PRECIOUS PRINCE!
WANT TO SEE HOW?
CLICK THE LINK BELOW
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That’s why it’s a problem. If every time he was killed it was intentional it would be better.
true
but I don’t see people complaining about other n1 deads as much.
Someone always has to die n1 and unfortunately, it is your Prince sometimes.
Giving Prince 1 time night immunity will just become the Priest problem again.
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It’s just something that happens in ToL in some shitty games.
GET OVER IT, it is just one game.
I cannot stress this point enough.
I hate playing NK as I always get called out D2 but I fucking sit through it even if I hate it
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You want the Priest to return?
That will solve your problem for unfair deaths…
Where you get a broken ass class with a mean of defense and is unconvertable.
You also get wait for Prince to die just for you to resurrect.
but yeah I over stress my points
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So let’s fix that.
That’s why we are asking for a timed Immunity rather than a limited use permanent immunity.
And saying I’m being salty doesn’t actually negate any arguments made. For all you know I’m mashing random keys on the keyboard, it was wouldn’t matter if u was.
I usually overexaggerate.
Even irl, nobody here would really want to meet me irl because of my personality would just irritate you all
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