3 nights of immunity is really OP.
My reasoning was that you donāt get to choose which 3 so it isnāt that bad.
I take it you would prefer 2?
Prince
Blue Dragon Special
Passive 1: Royal Blood - You may step up to become King.
Passive 2: Unstoppable - Night immune for the first 2 nights. The jailed player will be prevented from targeting you.
Day Ability: Imprison - Put target player in jail. Occupying them and preventing targets on them. (Unlimited)
Night Ability: Execute - Kill the jailed player. Bypasses night immunity. Disabled if you have killed a BD. (3 uses)
Removing unstoppable and replacing it with any type of immunity is buffing the Prince. Simple as
2 Likes
Does Prince really need a nerf? He is the best BD by FAR but does that mean he needs a nerf? Sure good prince plays win games but bad ones just as easily lose games. As prince if you canāt execute then you might get screwed as you donāt have that ability when you need it. Now you say prince does a better job then CW,Butler,Physician,and Psychic. But another argument is Sheriff is better then CW with scout and Paladin with smite. Drunk is basically a better butler so does drunk need a nerf?
Physician can just as easily be an alchemist or knight. Do alchs and knights need a nerf?
See this trend? Just because a class is better does not necessarily mean it needs to be nerfed. Prince is like the MM or CL for the evils.Them being alive can swing games. And @NuclearBurrito is right in that prince is a jack of all traits master of none because prince doesnāt excel at everything.
Now you saying that all classes should be around the same power level is really wrong of you to think. Every class should have its own niche. Some classes by design will be more powerful. Should all the cult classes be around the same power level? No not really but they all have niche.Apostle can become evil king if it was noble.Invokers/Ritualists can cause redirection and misinformation.But in then end CL will always be the strongest cult class.There is no way to counter that.Just like how MM will usually be the strongest unseen class.Right now the game is in a good spot in my opinion. Yes some things could use tweaking like CW and Butler and merc even though I disagree with merc changes but the point stands. When prince wins a game they do it with scum reading and general skill. Bad princes lose games and good ones carry.Just like a MM who can fake a will vs a MM who cant will always be better. Skill is a factor in the game.Making some of your changes would make this game minesweeper and pretty pointless. If all classes are the same power level then there all somewhat similar and it becomes pointless for social interaction.You might as well not talk for all the good it would do you if your changes went through. You want a game with zero convertibles and zero occupy immune people.Also you are right in that princeās should in theory out themselves D1 but most of them donāt sometimes leading to a N1 death.Also I like different games.If Prince was pretty much guaranteed to live until N4 then the games would be stale. One big aspect that changes gameplay is when prince is outed or killed. This forces BD to have to step up their game and start asking for classes and be aggressive because otherwise they lose. Making prince swingy is inherently unfair I agree with you but it allows diversity in the game. You donāt feel like youāre playing the same game. Games where Prince lives until the end and ones where he dies N1 are completely different.
2 Likes
The problem isnāt prince being stronger than everyone else. That has a great dynamic. The problem is him getting randomly killed before that dynamic comes into play. Thatās just swingy and swing is usually a bad thing as it causes wins or looses in spite of good or bad play (whichever is more applicable).
AKA: Prince needs to be able to survive till N3-4 for the same reason that MM does. If at that point the prince hasnāt found someone he can trust to protect him then all bets are off. Again this is the same philosophy as with MMās in the shadows and his limited replacement mechanic.
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Like I said the princeās survival changes gameplay. When Prince dies N1 it creates a very unique gameplay experience compared to when prince lives. MM is different as they are in the minority and the power class so if they could be found N1 or N2 they would be screwed based off of how the unseen works. And itās not the same philosophy prince is in the majority and can kill. That is extremely powerful. MM is in the minority so it is different. Prince doesnāt need to survive until N3-4 BD can win without him it would just be easier if prince was alive.Just But that is where skill comes in.How well can the evils pass their logs? How well can BD scum read. Its up to them to make the decision. They decide how to win. Now the same could be said for MM but no would like the game much if MM died to early because that would rob them of the chance to be converted and trying to change your gameplay based on that.
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Replace wisp with an ability that letās princess act as a budget prince.
(if you disagree with me you are sexist and Iām reporting u btw)
That version is a bit OP. It should just be replaced with this: Armored: You are immune to death at night once. Knightās armored should also be changed to this.
That is even stronger. The only situation in which my passive suggestion is stronger is if he is attacked both N1 and N2. Yours is stronger otherwise because it persists past N2
https://forum.imperium42.com/t/the-math-behind-n1-prince-deaths/52250
If anything this kinda shows without some godly intervention Prince at worst a 75% survival rate N1. SO WHY NERF HIM?
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I havent read your stats but I assume it doesnāt take into account protectives who happen to be on prince n1 and assassin being Jailed/blocked/debauched N1 so it is actually significantly higher than that.
We are nerfing him so that we can buff him differently without changing his overall power.
AKA: We are nerfing him so we can buff him again.
Usually when checking stats like this you are looking for a theoretical probability to show the existence of potentially BS scenarioās (or to show the lack of one).
For example to calculate the odds of prince being attacked N1-2 I would assume
A: No protectives are on the king
and
B: The Unseen and NK are not being occupied/jailed and they are not attacking each other or the same targets.
and
C: Assume Unseen game to make the math easier
and
D: Assume that no one has any additional information and that they are otherwise acting randomly
none of these things are true. However the numbers you get from these are still useful.
N1: 2 attacks and 12 targets (they are not attacking scum or king) or 16% of hit. 84% chance of survival
N2: 2 attacks and 9 targets or 22%. 78% chance of survival
In total thatās a 65% chance of dying by D3 assuming no one is lynched. 63% if someone is lynched. 52.5% if king order exeās N2 (probably because of EKing).
Iād put 65% as his base survival chance. Remember that the odds for anyone else are the same as none of these factors only apply to prince. However prince is the most important BD so it matters more.
The problem is that the prince dying N1 is completely random. Itās bad to have so much of the game decided by something totally random like that (hence why the MM role can be inherited in the first few nights.)
My suggestion to fix this is to make it so, if the Prince dies before the third night, one Princess can use a Day ability to instantly become the new Prince. Only one Princess can inherit the role this way per game.
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