In theory and most often you want to use tornado with someone on your team and someone who isn’t. If you now someone isn’t on your team then you just lynch them.
Ideally you want to do it between someone you KNOW is on your team, and someone you think is unlikely to be on your team. The bad guys like to leave alive the people who seem suspicious, the possible fools, the BDs with weak claims etc… they want to kill the BDs with very strong claims, the provens etc…
So… you save the prince and get the guy the BD was highly suspicious of… even if he’s a bd, you still narrowed down the list of suspects… and if he isn’t you’ve made em hit the reaper/fool/own member etc…
Most uses of abilities are shots in the dark that mostly accomplish nothing… I mean you could say the same about the phys… if a phys’s log isn’t 80% DNRs, it’s reasonable to assume either he’s cheating, or the bad guys are really dumb.
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Yes there are definitely good applications of tornado but I think 98% of the time it’s a shot in the dark and you harm BD by using it. Not a fun class to play for that reason. You’re best off doing nothing most nights.
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You ask me it changes unseens odds of killing their own members with their own attack from 0% to 10%… that’s pretty good.
Secondly on the whole… I think roles being removed because their actions don’t do enough visible impact… is currently a huge problem with the game and meta right now. We are setting the game up to be overtaken by “everyone claims day 2… BD wins meta”. In that we’re demanding every class to have such a blatently visible everyone knows it is what it is… that roles like assasain, mastermind, cult leader, all NKs etc… are going to stand out like sore thumbs simply by being the only guys that don’t leave huge as crap footprints that everyone see’s.
Me personally I preffered the 1 barrier form of CW, it had what to me was a really powerful ability, in that he could say keep that sheriff that came out safe from conversion etc… while at the same time being a viable scum-claim, as no one could really be sure if he did or didn’t do it.
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Random swaps in the first couple nights can make god tier plays because only the NK and evil can kill people, and if you just swap two BDs, then no harm done because it could have been either one. HOWEVER, you have the chance of swapping a BD and say MM/CL and if you’re really lucky, getting the assassin or NK to attack them N1 or N2. I have gotten the CL to kill himself on N2 before.
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Or you swap the knight who was going to die with the prince and now you lost your prince…
Nothing good and I mean NOTHING good comes from yolnados
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Barrier is only good if you can barrier multiple times on one person. Else it is dumb.
Save that sheriff n4 after coming out and n8 he dies because you couldn’t barrier him again. Or was that ice ward…i digress.
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There’s selective memory and confirmation bias here. You remember the times a CW swap got the prince killed early. You don’t recognize all the times one saved the prince. Villain attacks are random early anyway. As @Vandalay said, the difference is that a random tornado adds a small chance for a villain to target themselves. Random swaps early add percentage points to BD.
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The reasoning for the get Prince killed instead of Knight fails when you consider that the other way around is just as likely if not more likely given that the evils are actively searching for the Prince.
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So there is a 10% chance you kill an evil and a I’d say a 70 to 80% chance you kill a bd? That is good to you?
Call me crazy but I see far more BD getting screwed over by yolnado than I do evil. May be I’m the only one. I cant even recall the last time a saw an evil die to a tornado swap.
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Think it this way. Unless you are being an idiot and swaping someone that is known to be good and protected (like someone poisoned or an outed Prince) then not swaping them wouldn’t change anything.
Like if you swap a physician with a knight and one is attacked then you screwed over one of them but also helped the other. It also means that the one you saved isn’t the attacker
A 70% chance you change which bd is going to die… of which when such happens is 50/50 of whether you’ve made it better or worse than intended. Or it would be if you are assuming the unseen/cult/nk are killing entirely via pure randomness, and not via any knowledge they have obtained.
really though, it’s more like
90% chance no one attempts to kill or convert the target
6% chance, you save a good guy and kill a good guy
4% chance you make a good guy targetted replaced with a bad guy targetted.
and yes when I was talking about my preffered form of CW I was talking about the one from about a month and a half ago… IE the magic barrier one one target, that does not stop kills, but prevents conversion and occupation that could be used infinately on the same person. That was my most preferred form of CW.
I loved barrier tbh. Wish tornado was replaced again by barrier once again. I will start keeping track of tornados but I doubt they’re ever helpful.
Believe me Tornado is helpful. More so than the ToS transport by far. Especially because you can transport yourself. You can just swap yourself with someone you think is Unseen and if you are right they can’t attack you. If you are Wrong then they might hit them on accident because of your swap thus lowering the suspect list.
If you transport 2 people and one of them is killed then the other is cleared especially if the NK is dead.
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Tornado can be useful but equally annoying. At this point I say keep it, but make it a secondary ability for Court Wizard with limited uses.
This change would curb it being used to “yolo” swap people early game (where it’s a massive hinderance anyway) and encourage people to use it intelligently since it’s limited.
I’m not really sure what Court Wizard could get as a new primary ability, but Tornado isn’t healthy for this game as is.
I’m not really sure what the downsides of yolo swaping are. You don’t increase the chances of someone (other than evils which is good anyways) being attacked and Investigators still get accurate results and they know who’s results they are looking at too.
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Investigators still get accurate results and they know who’s results they are looking at too.
That is 100% false. Simply put, if someone goes to investigate someone they suspect and they are swapped with an innocent, obviously their results aren’t what they were looking for because they investigated a different person than they intended. That aside, I believe bbiaglla’s went over how seldom it is for yolonado to be useful.
It’s an ability that mostly shines mid~late game, when the Court Wizard knows who to swap with who. It would be better for it to have limited uses so the CW is encouraged to use it intelligently.
Well, let’s say 5 says something that a sheriff thinks is sort of suspect. So the sheriff tries to check that person, only they get swapped to… the guy they already checked. Or someone that wasn’t suspect at all. Or themselves.
Worse, let’s say an Observer uses Peek on them… and instead Peeks a known Merc or themselves. Now they’ve lost an ability down the drain and the BD got nothing for it.
The upside is… basically nothing. At best you’re randomly making a random thing happen to someone else randomly. At worst, you’re subverting the efforts of all the investigative classes and protecting scum and NKs by keeping people off them.
You can’t even really do it to yourself, since it just means some other random schmuck that was going to die or investigated hits you instead. It’s just chaos at a point where you need to start sorting out who is who and what is going on. It makes telling what happened more confusing. The observer was following 4, only he got swapped to 6, 4 died, now he needs to sort out those messages. Add a drunk in there for good measure. He goes to the court with his accusation and… is wrong because things got so muddled. They execute a BD. Next day they execute him or, worse, the Prince does. Scum and NK get 2 days of freedom and you’re down 2 people because a CW randomly clicked someone because they were bored.
Then you get the CW that chain swaps a dude. Who ends up being an assassin or MM or something. You would’ve figured that out 2 days ago but he got bored and decided he was going to “protect” the guy whispering the king or the like.
Early game CW is almost never an asset. They throw random chaos on top of the random chaos that is the early game. You can’t get your bearings or plan what you’re doing because anything you try to do might go out the window. The odds of the ability screwing over the BD is incredibly high. The odds of it hurting the NK/scum is basically nothing. You diverted the assassin from 7 to 10, well… 10 is dead and statistically probably a BD so it works for him.
Once you actually know something, the ability can be amazing. Swapping a confirmed sheriff with like an Alch means he’ll probably never die or be converted, nor will the Alch. You can set up walls that make people nigh-untouchable until they spend time tracking you down and killing you, and then if you know they’re on to you, you can ward them out and waste more time.
But before that point… it’s just chaos in a chaotic system where the team you’re on needs to establish order and you’re making that more difficult for them most of the time.
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I don’t think you get what I mean. If it’s early game then the Investigative classes don’t know much more than you do and it’s incredibly rare that you would swap them with themselves. It doesn’t mess with those early random investigations because they still know who they invesrigated. Mid game where invests start to have leads is where you start to figure out who the Investigators are and can simply whisper them that X suspect will not be swapped or that you will swap him with Y player. And late game where 2 or 3 evils are known but BD is low on votes is where you can save the game by getting the unseen/cult to kill themselves.