There’s little benefit at all to yolo swaps, yet early investigations are important. Investigators are expected to have results anyway or they’re sus.
and, there’s basically a 99% chance they will have results. it’s just quite possibly on someone they weren’t intending to investigate.
All that being said, I would still be in favor of a CW rework
infinate ability the old infinate use magic ward, and 2x uses of tornado.
Unfortunately magic ward was so bitched about as useless that it’s unlikely to make a comeback. As in short if an ability doesn’t self prove and do something earth shattering, the community is going to bitch, call the class useless until it gets replaced with something much more visible. Just like what happened to the CW that started this to begin with.
You’re thinking of linear investigators like Sheriff, only. Further, if King asks them to investigate someone and they get redirected it isn’t very helpful.
That aside, investigators like Observer who follow people and try to get an idea of who is who are greatly hindered by early CW yolonado.
A good example is my Observer game from this morning where I noticed 12 visited 5 N1, and 5 didn’t die. I was curious if they were an investigator or MM, so N2 I decided to Peek 5 to see if they were converted. I instead got redirected to 3 who was Blue Dragon and Psychic. Not helpful at all and a waste of my Peek. (BTW, 5 was converted and 12 did turn out to be MM. I could’ve caught that N2 but… #yolonado)
In any case, early investigations > early luck with Tornado any day. There’s no harm at all in encouraging it be used wisely rather than randomly.
You realize that 75% of early investigations are linear even if it is an observer. If you are CW and someone is requesting that the king investigates someone than don’t be an idiot and swap the person. Or you could tell the king what you are doing and swap him anyway but now with the added benefit of potentially keeping an ally safe that night.
I know that the CW CAN screw things up but usually he doesn’t. You just notice it more when he does.
1 Like
And what I’m saying is that CW is mostly useful when they know who is who, which is mid to late game. Early game they don’t have that information.
CW suffers the same exact problems of misuse as Transporter in ToS. There, it’s honestly best to abstain from doing anything until you know who to swap and with who.
What I suggested keeps CW useful and also makes it less of a hinderance to every other BD class in the game trying to do their own part at night. #yolonado out.
1 Like
My counter argument is that early game before you have that information is when everyone is acting randomly anyways so there isn’t anything you can really mess up. If a sheriff check 5 N1 rather than 6 then no one cares. He will just note the change and move on. Same for obs except now he knows that you the CW was one of the visitors which is helpful to him.
most of the other complaints are things that apply to the Drunk too. For example messing with follow up checks. The only difference is that you are more likely to know who the suspect is than who the invest is unless it is king who is occ immune anyways so it doesn’t matter (occ immunes are immune to retargeting abilitys like deb or tornado).
Mid to late game is where we already agree that it is very useful. Just think of the CW as an offencive type and you will get what I mean. After all the only thing worse than your follow up peek being replaced with a result that isn’t what you needed is having it replaced with no result at all like the butler does. And like the butler and drunk that swaping gives you information. Like what I have said twice now if something happens to one of the people you swapped then the other person isn’t the one that did it.
2 Likes
Let’s just stop trying to compare it with investigators. Tornado’s entire purpose is for it to swap two targets and hopefully ensure either the safety of a BD or the demise of an enemy. Once again, without information, you can not do that effectively.
As it is now, Court Wizard is best played abstaining the first few nights. Yet the current expectations of players is for them to do something every night rather than nothing.
Simply give them a new ability for night time to go with the already existing Tornado. Limit Tornado to 4 uses, and we should hopefully have a CW that doesn’t give everyone else on the Blue Dragon faction a massive headache while still being useful.
Not really sure why you choose to ignore all of the complaints that ability is receiving. They are legitimate.
Reread my argument. I was comparing it to the other offensive classes in terms of how they interact with investigators. Personally I would just make him offensive because that’s really what he is now.
I would make him offensive too, same with Sage.
Sage with tornado can be useful because you can easily kill outed Princes by moving the Prince somewhere else and then get the assassin to kill the person who was swapped with the prince
Those classes don’t create chaos though.
If a Drunk targets you early: you know who the drunk is.
If a Butler occupies you early: you know there is a butler.
There is a 0% chance that a drunk targeting you will cause you to target yourself.
Also you seem to think that every time a king or someone asks for a check it’s public knowledge. Hell, I’ve seen plenty of Kings screwed over by CW antics… like checking the same target multiple times because the CW randomly swapped them twice. King checks 5, comes up BD. Next turn they try to check 8, but CW swaps them to 5 or someone else they’ve already checked.
Observers become nearly useless. Add a Drunks on top of it and you can waste entire days where investigators can’t do anything.
The net gain: literally nothing. Absolutely nothing is gained from it. It’s not risk vs reward or anything, it’s just random. You might swap an assassin target to the possessor or a fool. But it’s equally likely you’ll swap a fool kill to the Prince. Drunks and Butlers are just nullifying people and also learning things. Hey, 5 was occupy immune. Was that because of someone else doing something or is he the Possessor? Swapping 5 with 8 tells everyone… nothing at all. Except that maybe someone was targeting one of them, which is basically pointless information if one of them dies you know he died and that the target was 8, not 5. Which tells you, again, nothing. Because you don’t know anything about either person except for the one that’s now dead, which isn’t useful.
Edit: All that said, I like the CW, but early on there isn’t much use to tornado other than maybe one early to prove your role if called on it. I’d rather they had an extra ward or two so they don’t feel inclined to blind swap everyone every night.
2 Likes
If they swapped the BD version to barrier CW would be great. Tornado is 100% an evil spell.
I’ve been trying to tell you that the CW learns things just like the Butler and CW. If you swap 1 and 2 and then 2 is killed that night then you can clear 1 as a suspect because if 1 was unseen then they couldn’t try to target him.
Plus there is the fact that you are more likely to swap a Prince out of harm rather than into it. The Unseen and Cult are try their best to figure out who the Prince is and to kill him. The odds of them attacking the prince on any given night is higher than anyone else. The randomness from CW can reduce those odds.
Tornado is a great BD spell. But it is one with a potential downside.
People tend to remember the downside much better than the upside. (Confirmation bias)
I basically agree with all the points @NuclearBurrito is making here.
It is the same if you have a deck with cards, and you don’t know the order they are in. Putting the bottom card on top will do nothing with your expected outcome. (basic statistics)
A good CW will alter these base odds only in his favour. Because he has some knowledge about the situation. Because if he Tornadoes himself early on (100% BD) he might replace himself with someone not BD. (which, in almost all cases, is the idea)
2 Likes
I’ve been trying to tell you that the CW learns things just like the Butler and CW. If you swap 1 and 2 and then 2 is killed that night then you can clear 1 as a suspect because if 1 was unseen then they couldn’t try to target him.
Except even that is questionable because you are assuming the attack came from unseen and not from NK or alch. All you can really say is that 1 didn’t kill 2.
It’s also useful information knowing whether 2 was sus/not sus than 1. Or if 1 who claimed Alchemist was Killer or Offensive for the Princess checking them.
Seriously. Court Wizard is not intended to be investigative. It’s support class.
Eventually, sure. Early? He’s just randomly clicking like everyone else 95% of the time.