Remove Unseen Conversion. Redesign unseen

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

My suggestion is simple.
Remove conversion entirely from the unseen faction.
Give them 4 starting members, no recruiting. Let the mastermind fulfill a different function

Bold, I know. Might sound crazy. But I think the current design is bad.

For a start, very few really like conversion. It’s a terrible mechanic mostly. You’re enjoying the game and then you get ripped out of it and forced to suddenly adopt an entirely new mindset. Getting into character once is hard enough, doing it again midgame is pretty jarring, and many people simply fail at it.

Second, there’s already cult. They do converting. Why do we need two factions that revolve around conversion? It makes the two not feel very different from each other.

Thirdly, and perhaps most annoyingly to my mind. It seems like you - the developers - don’t like conversion either. It’s getting gradually chipped away at. Sheriff scout, Wizard’s Clear Mind, and now the king’s fealty ability. Not to mention dividing the previously convertible mercenary into two unconvertible classes.
All of these changes over the past months have had the net effect of making the Mastermind play experience worse and worse and worse. Greatly increasing the chances that a conversion will fail, for one of many reasons.

It leads to frustrating games that are highly luck based. You can’t just pick someone you want to convert, any revealed person is likely to be protected against it. Often you just have to pick a quiet target and pray that they’re convertible, useful, not afk, and can suddenly adapt to being a new class. And that their converted class isn’t one that’s immediately proveable.

I think converting is just not fun. For most people, in either faction
I’m not saying all those corrupted class versions need to go away though, just swap the unseen from a conversion based strategy, to a strategy based on using their initial numbers. Give them a starting party of Mastermind, Asasssin, and two randomly selected corrupted classes.

As for the mastermind themselves, give them a broad array of investigative and hampering abilities to make them a useful asset. And more significantly, to allow them to convincingly fake a broad variety of roles

3 Likes
#2

Would prefer this as a seperate gamemode, but it begs the question - why not go play any other, free, game like Town of Salem or Camp Cadaver?

11 Likes
#3

But i love being converted. The cult converts are SOOO boring tbh. I love sage/enforcer/illusionist. even if you were going to let a random unseen spawn all BD has to do is kill the assassin and then let’s say someone claimed noble and they can’t do it anymore. They would lose members fast.

5 Likes
#4

I personally love being converted, even into a loss. Plus, assassin is too easily killed/found by so many different classes that unseen would quite quickly be found out and lose any bonuses they gained from converted classes.

7 Likes
#5

Conversion is fine, it prevents BD classes from being easily confirmed. If anything there needs to be less abilities that make players conversion immune. Swear fealty should be replaced and empower should be changed. I agree that the cult and unseen need more differences though. The CL is currently just a mixture of mastermind and assassin.

5 Likes
#6

If you want to remove conversion, remove it from cult. Unseen’s multitude of classes is what makes them cool.

Also, I’m fine with conversion and often enjoy it.

#7

Conversion is the whole point. If you don’t like conversion then ToL is the wrong game for you.

Basically any suggestions that change a games premise should be ignored because impliamenting them leaves you with a different game entirely. Or in otherwords without things like conversion or the king ToL simply isn’t ToL. If you want to take that away then you are wasting your time.

4 Likes
#8

what the actual fuck

2 Likes
#9

I hearted the OP because it’s really well written but not because I agree with it.

I do think Swear Fealty and the conversion immunity given to empowered social classes should be replaced. I also agree that the Merc should be convertable again.

Your point about the Sheriff’s Scout is actually incorrect though. The new Sheriff scout makes it harder to catch converts.

I do think it would be cool to have a new faction without conversion. But I definitely don’t support removing conversion from Unseen or Cult.

Like Firekitten, I also LOVE being converted. Even into a loss. Conversion is one of the coolest parts about this game.

As for the mastermind themselves, give them a broad array of investigative and hampering abilities to make them a useful asset. And more significantly, to allow them to convincingly fake a broad variety of roles

We just need new BD classes so it’s easier to fake-claim, that’s all.

3 Likes
#10

The cult converts are SOOO boring tbh. I love sage/enforcer/illusionist.

I do wish Cult had an ability similar to Herbalist’s Defile. But I like Cult’s converts, especially Apostle. Swapping as Ritualist is fun too, and I feel it almost fulfills the function of Enforcer Frenzy when you want to get King Guards off of Prince. And Invoker’s occupy is important to prevent Paladins from smiting.

I actually think Sage Firewall is boring and would like it to be replaced with something else.

#11

how does that work cause king’s guards don’t visit

#12

I don’t know, it just does.

#13

Conversion is what makes throne of lies uniq we cant just get rid of it unless its a new gamemode

6 Likes
#14

Second off the cult and unseen needed a counter to stop them from growing thats why scout swear and cws are here

#15

This point is simply not true. Wizard’s Clear Mind is an almost 1 to 1 replacement for the original barrier, which also prevented conversion. Sheriff’s Scout has been nerfed and can no longer flawlessly detect conversion. Mastermind has been buffed in that on a third failed convert, he’d randomly succeed anyways on a diffferent target. The only real point is the king’s swear fealty ability, which has more to do with the king and less with the conversion mechanic in my opinion. The developers have definitely not been discouraging conversion. Mastermind still needs to apply social deduction too to find genuine and decent convert targets. That is healthy for the game in my opinion.

1 Like
#16

Yay to that!

Maybe just start some game with unseen getting 4 random unseen without any MM, that could be easy for the developers too.
I do think that in that case, they should have a way to “trick” bd, with a defile day ability that work after execution

1 Like
#17

Conversion as a mechanic isn’t bad. Sure, it can be annoying to be converted into a loss, but it doesn’t need anything as intense as this. Cult converts need work tbh, not unseen. And your third point isn’t very accurate, new scout makes finding converts more difficult and clear mind is just barrier for the day. King fealty I don’t think is that bad, sure the permanent immunity is strong, but the one use CAN screw you over. So can the false sense of security if it ends up being EK.

This point lost me. Either EK will up non-claimers quickly allowing for a public claim which will ofc be protected if it’s a good convert, giving the opportunity to convert other people or GK will be quiet and secretive making it more difficult to defend good converts, especially when those convert blocking abilities are limited (like clear mind, the new barrier, also has limited uses). Worst case scenario is the king or prince have been communicative in whispers/jail.

I don’t see the problem here. It’s not like someone is gonna randomly ask for you to prove out of the blue. Being instantly proveable does not equal being instantly outed. And general rule of thumb anyway is the more useful the convert is, the harder it is to prove good, which is good for a convert-based system.

This doesn’t sound very good to me. As you’ve just mentioned previously, some ‘corrupted roles’ are hard to fake. You can’t just take 2 random corrupted classes and expect it to work. Major reworks of many unseen classes would be required to make this work. The system you want is more luck-based than converts, as you actually have control over that. Sure, the starting secondary cult is random, but that only has 4 roles which aren’t super obvious cult. That’s much less random than the 12 other roles in unseen.

EDIT - made the first part less exaggerated

2 Likes
#18

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#19

ToL’s class are too powerful because the whole game was designed to fit a gameplay based on conversion. You would also need either to buff the 4 Unseen to a point where none of those abilities are really relevant anymore (thus debuffing BD) or debuff BD. Both would completly redesign the game into a different one. If you don’t like conversion, I recommend you to play Town of Salem. People like to demonize it in the chat, but it’s honestly good as well.

Also stop making general assumptions based on your personal experiences and using false data.

3 Likes
#20

Wait what

You can’t just write off major issues like that

Conversions are a problem, but this game is clearly trying to minimize the consequences of sticking with them rather than eliminate the root cause. That doesn’t make them not a problem!

3 Likes