Report's functions as an in-game tool

#1

Hello,

First off, I want to say that I greatly enjoy the game, finding it as a former Town of Salem player who heard about Throne of Lies through word of mouth. I don’t normally make complaints online, as I know that a few onions on my burger here and there are not the end of the world. I would however like to voice my concerns over a trend I’ve seen in one of my favorite games, after playing for 6 months. In most games, sub-optimal play is differentiated from reportable offenses. However, after experiencing a similar situation so many times, I took to discord where i had sparked a rather heated discussion until this ultimatum this was given:

Untitled

Essentially, this moderator has stated that “not claiming on the stand on any day is against the rules, at least as a bd, PERIOD”

I feel that this goes against the spirit of the game, and that it weaponizes reporting as a tool for BD to use to out any claims that otherwise would have been kept under wraps. This rule essentially forces every single player to claim, evil or not, as the only players who are able to withhold their claim are either evil or breaking the rules, and thus are free to be executed if evil, and reported it not.

If it is the case that “not claiming on the stand on any day is against the rules, at least as a bd, PERIOD”, than this should be codified in the rules more specifically than “going against the win condition of your team”. As it is, players are using “no claim, report this” as a legitimate metagaming tool to achieve their goals. If this is the actual rule, then really what is means is that all BD players are required to claim on the stand, and any evil/neut players that choose not to claim are essentially revealing themselves. This goes against the spirit of a game based around deception and omission, for the sake of players who have only confirmed themselves as good, and unnecessarily forces everyone to play into a certain ‘meta’.

If players are considered game throwing when withholding claims, why not just have the game show player’s claims when they are placed on the stand?

#2
Rant 1

Has it occured to you that maybe there are some instances when evils may actually want to be executed? For instance fool, unseen wanting to get a new convert, cult bussing their CL because they converted the paladin.

Yes, give me an example where you wouldn’t want to claim on the stand. Be as specific as possible.

Again correct by default

So let me get this straight, you want to make it so you don’t have to claim when upped, so that it isn’t as easy to spot evils, or let me try and think of why you would want this change besides this:

  1. So not claiming doesn’t get you executed during the day

Except I can’t think of a reason why you shouldn’t claim, if you are BD, surely you want to make it so that there are no red flags about you? You want to lessen people’s suspicion of you. Sure, sometimes claiming isn’t going to be good enough. But not claiming is guaranteed to get you exed.

There is an adage we have here on the forum, and that is claiming is the last line of defense for you if you are accused of being scum.

In short, you should be taking it for granted that you claim on the stand. You want to be social, figuring out who’s who and who’s not. You want to look like you’re doing something important. You want to be communicating what you are without having to damn well spell it out on trial.

If people have to up you to force you to co-ordinate with others, how can you call yourself a Blue Dragon?

#3

Even if you are something like a phys/chrono/knight, your logs and claim helps because a princess can say oh I flirted this guy, his result checks out or an obs can say “yeah, this guy did visit X person on Y night.”. If you are playing and co-ordinating effectively, there is really no reason for you to be upped unless someone framed you

#4

I don’t understand the point of this. Of course refusing to make a defence/claim as BD should be reportable.

4 Likes
#5

It’s as if the OP is implying there is at least one legitimate reason for BD not to claim on stand, but he is neglecting to specify what that reason is

1 Like
#6

I am now going to use this metaphor all the time. Thank you.

4 Likes
#7

Let me preface that by saying “Not claim” I mean not revealing your class, however still saying that you’re BD.

I’m not saying that this shouldn’t get you executed. Being executed for not revealing your class is perfectly fine within the limits of the game, and a reasonable consequence. People saying “This guy isn’t revealing his class, we should exe” is a perfectly fine statement in the game, and both evil and BD can say it and an outside observer would see it as furthering the interests of their team.

My issue is with people who will say things like “report this guy for gamethrowing, he is saying he’s bd but not giving out his class” or after you’re executed for not revealing your class, someone would say “OMG this guy was XXX but wouldn’t just say it. everyone report him” What this does is introduce of out-of-game consequences for what I feel is legitimate in-game play, not only for the player on the stand, but for everyone else in the game who now feel forced to reveal their classes or face potential reports at end of the game. And all of this can hinge on a day 2 random lynching.

You did ask for specific instances, but there are so many variables in the game, and there will always be a “What if?” or “Yea, but…” to any that I can present, but I’ll do my best to provide some examples:

A completely silent day 1 and a random point that leads to an up.

A prince who does not want to out himself day 2, and does not want to reveal his class, or maybe only revealed it to a single player through whispers.

A noble that wants another day to gather claims.

The only protective class left in a game of 3v3v1, where evil knowing who the healer is would lose the game(in this case, wouldn’t revealing your class be reportable gamethrowing, since your giving direct information on who evil should kill?)

There’s an infinite number of situations where hiding your class would be beneficial to the outcome of the game, and an infinite amount of ways to argue that revealing your class would be better, and an infinite amount of ways to argue that argument ad infinitium, and any of them would be a valid reason to execute the person not revealing their class, but I don’t believe it is reportable, intentional gamethrowing for someone who wishes to keep their class a secret.

First edit: Typos
Second edit:
“Even if you are something like a phys/chrono/knight, your logs and claim helps because a princess can say oh I flirted this guy, his result checks out or an obs can say “yeah, this guy did visit X person on Y night.”. If you are playing and co-ordinating effectively, there is really no reason for you to be upped unless someone framed you”

I’m really focusing on early accusations when players generally don’t have much in their logs, and pretty much noone’s claim or actual class in the game is revealed. What forcing someone to reveal via game rules does is provide a silver bullet to find someone’s class.

#8

Counter Point. A BD can lie about their class. But refusing to claim anything is always reportable.

2 Likes
#9

Say I’m important BD. Do NOT exe me. You don’t out yourself. Problem solved
If you whispered someone they will out you if you outed as prince anyway.

Except if it is d2, which is the most realistic scenario for a noble to do this, if he used maid spy then he has infomation which can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is not MM, assassin, CL or NK. If he copies and pastes a whisper he is limited to Noble/Apostle/Aristocrat and like 0.0001% poss who isn’t very smart.

Self care and PD exist for a reason, if you decided to use them before you had any reason to suspect you may be killed well that’s a shame. Let’s assume the one neutral is NK and there is an outed prince and 3 Unseen. Unseen don’t know who NK is, you don’t know what anyone else is besides prince, and he has jailed the MM and is executing, your chances of winning are very slim regardless, if anything you should actually fakeclaim as something like sellsword/Pretender to draw NKs away from you. That’s not gamethrowing, that’s trying to make the best of a bad situation.

#10

Or even say if you were a noble that was occupied n1, maybe we should give those claims the benefit of the doubt, they can get whispers the next day right?

Or maybe a hunter that can always wolf someone tomorrow right?

Or maybe knight that can always cs tonight, right?

The point is BD need to make a judgement whether you are trying to solve the game or not. Claiming is an essential aspect to that.

So in short, yes I will report you if you refuse to claim on the stand especially if you have infomation that could save you or have saved you from being there in the first place!

#11

So why wouldn’t you do so? If it’s the beginning of the game ie d2. As I said people may have info on you, people may not. Even if you are something hard to confirm like phys/chrono, there are infinite way that you will be protected.

#12

If there is something wrong with being proactive and trying to find who is BD and who isn’t I will gladly take it, as any class.

#13

“Say I’m important BD. Do NOT exe me. You don’t out yourself. Problem solved
If you whispered someone they will out you if you outed as prince anyway.”

This is exactly the situation I’m talking about. This gets met with cries of “report this”, when really, people should be allowed to claim their faction alone without threats of being reported.

Edit: again, I’m not complaining about being executed in game, which is a totally valid reaction to something like this. But it is not intentional gamethrowing

Another edit: Maybe this post is arguing a hypothetical situation. What everything I’m saying boils down to is that reporting should not be used as an in-game tool for any situation, and that bringing up the idea of reporting someone for their actions, legal or not, brings in too much influence of factors outside the game. People use "Report this’ as a tool to win people to their side, and this is what I feel is against the spirit of the game. The reason for the person saying it is irrelevant

#14

Claiming no class on trial as BD is always gamethrowing

#15

To everyone wondering when not claiming as BD is fine consider this:

If there is enough public information to conclude that you are 100% BD then you should be pardoned regardless of claim. For example a proven Observer peeked you while being empowered and outed himself to get you pardoned. Or if someone else can be shown to be what people are accusing YOU to be (for example when looking for NK and existing claims adding up in such a way that someone MUST be NK and thus not you).

There are other situations that work. The point is that if you have a method of proving yourself that doesn’t involve your claim then using that proof instead of claiming is legal (even if it doesn’t work as per the definition of gamethrowing)

#16

To me this is a no brainer… not claiming “ON THE STAND”

how do you get ON THE STAND… well obviously roughly half of the players vote you to the stand.

AKA being on the stand means half of the living players have already made the call that if you do not provide them with a decent reason to be trusted… they will execute you.

once you are on the stand… it takes considerably less than that to execute you… if 51% of those who respond vote to execute, you are dead. Meaning unlike the last one where someone afk, not paying attention or wanting no part, are now non factors instead of speed bumps.

So yes… in short the fact that you are on the stand, means a controlling share of players have expressed that they will kill you if you do not claim something. If you are on the stand and don’t claim, unless you think BD using up their day’s lynch on you is in the interest of your win-condition (virtually never the case for BD, rarely the case for unseen/cult, and litterally never the case for NK).

1 Like
#17

you’re arguing with yourself

#18

I mean the situation I presented is rare. But having someone who is trusted know you are good while someone who is null accuses you is a viable situation. From there it is reasonable to think (correctly or otherwise) that the trusted player pointing out your innocence might outweigh the accusers claim that you are scum.

#19

If you want to arrow someone as Hunter, I consider that another rare instance where not claiming as BD is a legitimate play