[Rework Proposal] Scorned, the Bringer of Justice

Feedback/Suggestions
#41

I really dislike the trollbox ability, so no, sorry. :stuck_out_tongue:

Does it say they are immune? Because a simple fix can be to change the ability feedback to “You attempted to occupy/redirect X but were prevented.” This can allow such classes to claim they must have been guarded or the like.

As Nuclear Burrito pointed out earlier, if you want to have the Scorned kill both targets (and I do) you need this sort of ability. It’s not too powerful, it’s necessary to pull off a more difficult wincon.

It helps keep your targets alive, as you only have 3 uses of Specter of Justice and you want to get both of them lynched. This allows a skillful Scorned to keep her targets alive in the early game. If you fail your original wincon then yeah, don’t use it.

This is incorrect. The Scorned is a class that wants 2 starting BD to be publicly executed. The current Scorned already wins if her targets are converted by the time they’re executed, which means her goal, while semi-hostile to BD, is not actually anti-BD.

It is entirely possible for a Scorned rework to expand her mechanics and goals based on what she represents flavour-wise (a vengeful Neutral that seeks justice for a murdered loved one), and making her a class that wants to see killers punished is entirely in keeping with her theme and identity.

Also, I don’t see why you say you have to out yourself for Sense Guilt to work? You can claim Princess and say they came out as Killer/Offensive, as the only classes that can kill at night and aren’t Killer as of now are Alchemist, Paladin, Inquisitor and Cult Leader. And you can still claim Sheriff/Paladin and say they were Cult/Unseen, and your daytime Defile will prove you right (on your targets). It’s not at all an ability that requires outing.

Ooooor I could be attempting to expand the Scorned’s mechanics and options so that it’s a class with more agency, interactivity and strategic depth and using her thematic identity as a starting point. :slight_smile:

#42

Here’s where you went wrong. You start with a mechanical class and build an identity around that. Not the other way around

#43

That’s not necessarily the only way to design something. Both top-down and bottom-up are equally valid ways to design something and each have their pros and cons and opportune times.

If you want to expand a class’s mechanics, you can try to add more mechanics that you personally want to see in the game and then make them fit thematically, or you can explore its thematic identity and figure out appropriate mechanics. Both are valid.

#44

Does it say they are immune? Because a simple fix can be to change the ability feedback to “You attempted to occupy/redirect X but were prevented.” This can allow such classes to claim they must have been guarded or the like.

Yeah, IMO the simplest method of doing this would be giving the Scorned the MM’s passive. Showing prevented would be too obvious.

As Nuclear Burrito pointed out earlier, if you want to have the Scorned kill both targets (and I do) you need this sort of ability. It’s not too powerful, it’s necessary to pull off a more difficult wincon.

The issue here is that it makes it too easy for the Scorned to get rid of 2 BD-aligned players without any suspicion at all. For the Scorned herself this is fine, the problem is that just by succeeding in a mislynch you’re nigh-guaranteeing a second one due to confirmation from the first one. Two mislynches will heavily tilt any game towards the favor of the Unseen or the Cult.

It helps keep your targets alive, as you only have 3 uses of Specter of Justice and you want to get both of them lynched. This allows a skillful Scorned to keep her targets alive in the early game. If you fail your original wincon then yeah, don’t use it.

It’s extremely unlikely. You’d first have to find a killer, then hope that he’s the NK/Assassin/CL, and then hope that he’s the killer who will be targeting one of your targets that night. You’re better off upfront claiming an investigative class and accusing your target.

This is incorrect. The Scorned is a class that wants 2 starting BD to be publicly executed. The current Scorned already wins if her targets are converted by the time they’re executed, which means her goal, while semi-hostile to BD, is not actually anti-BD.

A Scorned executing a converted target rarely happens. Plus, the entire purpose of the Scorned is to dis-encourage early-game accusations, which is explicitly anti-BD in both theory and practice. This is like saying that Inquisitors are not anti-Sorcerer as they can still win with them if they become a Neutral King. It can happen, but the vast majority of times it won’t.

It is entirely possible for a Scorned rework to expand her mechanics and goals based on what she represents flavour-wise (a vengeful Neutral that seeks justice for a murdered loved one), and making her a class that wants to see killers punished is entirely in keeping with her theme and identity.

Thematically and lore-wise, yes. The issue is that you’re adding an anti-Cult/anti-Unseen/anti-NK wincon to a anti-BD neutral. Mechanically, this makes it difficult and clunky to work.

Also, I don’t see why you say you have to out yourself for Sense Guilt to work? You can claim Princess and say they came out as Killer/Offensive, as the only classes that can kill at night and aren’t Killer as of now are Alchemist, Paladin, Inquisitor and Cult Leader. And you can still claim Sheriff/Paladin and say they were Cult/Unseen, and your daytime Defile will prove you right (on your targets). It’s not at all an ability that requires outing.

If unlimited daytime defile is possible then that again raises another issue. The issue with the daytime defile is that it’s an ability that allows you to remove one of your targets while also confirming yourself and nobody will be the wiser. It’s a broken mechanic that needs to be restricted otherwise it’s nigh impossible to counter. Meanwhile if you restrict it, it becomes nigh impossible to lynch your target without getting lynched in the process.

The entire issue here is that you’re trying to create an anti-everyone investigation class, which does not work unless through some utterly broken mechanic as unlimited daytime defile.

Ooooor I could be attempting to expand the Scorned’s mechanics and options so that it’s a class with more agency, interactivity and strategic depth and using her thematic identity as a starting point.

Then make sure the mechanics aren’t contradicting themselves. This is the main issue why your new Scorned won’t work. You can’t have an initially anti-BD class that will shift into an anti-Evil investigative class.

Also, daytime defile is far stronger than you think. I created a defile-based class once and I had to nerf it to the ground due to seriously underestimating its strength.

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#45

OP’s issue isn’t that he created a thematic class first, though. I do it from time to time and my classes don’t have any glaring issues that his classes tends to have. The main issue with his classes, most notably the Queen and this new Scorned is that he doesn’t have a set goal for his class’ roles. He essentially builds a theme and then begins adding mechanics that fit with the theme but have no synergy among the niche for their class. Plus, he tends to underestimate the strength that certain mechanics have in Mafia games such as KPN.

Making thematic classes is entirely feasible, it’s just that they need to have synergy within their own kit to work.

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#46

I mean… you yourself said she can be found out by her Resolve passive. Likewise, the fact that the Defile effect wipes a journal can be a telling effect for BD. Not quite enough to out her immediately, but enough to generate some suspicion. An Observer’s Peek will reveal her immediately, as well.

Besides, the community is really good at generating ways to get around harmful behaviour. The trollbox is almost useless because people quote important statements to ensure they aren’t trollboxed, Reaper checks and Possessor passwords are a thing, and people keep track of conversion nights, who voted/didn’t vote (and how), and so on. I think this Scorned wiping journals can end up being a thing the community works around, with caught evils wiping their journals on purpose to try and make a legit BD look like Scorned, for example, and people distrusting executions of people who claimed BD until the end and had their journals wiped.

It isn’t either/or. You can do both. You can pretend to be an investigative class, quietly block a killer and don’t take credit for it. The game has a lot of ways of preventing attacks and some ways to bypass those preventions.

It’s not explicitly anti-BD, though. It’s harmful to BD, yes, but the Scorned doesn’t win by seeing BD fall, that is explicitly anti-BD (aka Sellsword and NKs). The Alchemist and Inquisitor can straight up kill BDs (and a lot of them do), and the Knight, Prince, Good King, Butler and Hunter can royally screw over BD by killing another BD. And new Drunk/CW can generate the exact same problems by redirecting the targets of the classes above.

Just because a Neutral’s goal/mechanics can harm BD doesn’t make them explicitly anti-BD.

Do you have a better suggestion for an alternate goal? Wanting to see killers dead seems like a natural extension of the character, but I’m open to suggestions.

Limiting Defile to 2 to 4 uses (before the target is voted up) would require skillful play. Would that balance it?

#47

IMO the class card is too complex. I think you should make it 1 wincon instead of multiple

#48

That’s fair, but the Scorned’s normal wincon is already rather fragile. If there’s any class deserving of an alternate wincon, it’s the Scorned.

#49

This doesn’t need to be in the wincon it’s implied.

#50

New Class - Neutral Investigative Wincon

Scorned wincon

Here you are mixing up 2 different wincon. Instead of reworking scorned make a new class that is a Neutral Investigative

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#51

Harmful to BD is the definition of anti-BD

#52

Yeah the entire point of this was to give the Scorned an additional wincon and additional abilities to have more interactivity, decision-making and strategy. Telling me to separate this into two classes goes directly against the point.

Suggesting an alternate wincon that is more in line with the Scorned’s thematic identity would be better feedback, thanks. :slight_smile:

#53

Your point is bad

#54

shrug

It is what it is.

#55

Doesn’t have to be

#56

I mean… you yourself said she can be found out by her Resolve passive.

Butlers and Drunks will typically leave you alone after you find an Unseen player, so yeah.

Likewise, the fact that the Defile effect wipes a journal can be a telling effect for BD.

Having log-less evils is pretty common, so this won’t be a good tell.

An Observer’s Peek will reveal her immediately, as well.

Same as a Princess finding them to be Social/Support instead of Special/Investigative. But again, there’s no reason why an Investigative or an Offensive class would visit someone who just outed an evil, so yeah.

The trollbox is almost useless because people quote important statements to ensure they aren’t trollboxed,

Depends on how experienced the Fool/Scorned is at Trollboxing. Just spamming “Sheriff here. Inv 3 - Unseen!” isn’t going to fool anyone. But if you drop misinformation that doesn’t sound out of place at key moments then you can really mess BD up.

I mean, just yesterday in a single game I managed to get a Butler voted up and executed because I tb’d “I barrier’d 6 and got success, so someone tried to convert him?” on him, made a Princess counter-claim a Merc which got her executed by the Prince, and then got a Sheriff OE’d because I tb’d “King, exe 7 tonight to prove you’re good. He’s likely the MM.” on the Prince. So the Trollbox can go from useless to insanely strong depending on who uses it.

Reaper checks

Doesn’t really work.

Possessor passwords are a thing

And only used in an extremely small minority of Possessor games.

who voted/didn’t vote

This is basically scumreading 101.

Scorned wiping journals can end up being a thing the community works around, with caught evils wiping their journals on purpose to try and make a legit BD look like Scorned, for example,

Only a few people would notice this. And even then the sheer frequency of evils wiping their journals, many who already do, would make it nigh-impossible to notice.

It isn’t either/or. You can do both. You can pretend to be an investigative class, quietly block a killer and don’t take credit for it. The game has a lot of ways of preventing attacks and some ways to bypass those preventions.

The day ability slot would be far better reserved for another ability. The synergy it has with the Scorned’s first goal is very weak and it’s counter-intuitive to use it with her second goal.

It’s not explicitly anti-BD, though. It’s harmful to BD, yes, but the Scorned doesn’t win by seeing BD fall

It doesn’t really matter if it’s harmful to BD or outright requires BD to lose. The issue here is if the class just gives negative utility to BD then you can’t claim it as any smart BD would automatically get rid of them as soon as possible.

The Alchemist and Inquisitor can straight up kill BDs

If they want. Their wincon requires them to stay alive(Alchemists) or kill the Sorcerer(Inquisitor) and they can ignore BD if they wish. For Scorneds, they need to get BD-aligned players to fulfill their wincon.

the Knight, Prince, Good King, Butler and Hunter can royally screw over BD by killing another BD

This would fall under poor play or gamethrowing depending on the circumstances as these classes require BD to win in order for their wincon to be satisfied. Meanwhile the Scorned’s wincon requires them to get 2 BD-aligned class executed in order for them to win.

Just because a Neutral’s goal/mechanics can harm BD doesn’t make them explicitly anti-BD.

Yes, yes it does.

As I said before “It doesn’t really matter if it’s harmful to BD or outright requires BD to lose. The issue here is if the class just gives negative utility to BD then you can’t claim it as any smart BD would automatically get rid of them as soon as possible.”

Do you have a better suggestion for an alternate goal? Wanting to see killers dead seems like a natural extension of the character, but I’m open to suggestions.

Give the Scorned a new target if both original ones die, change the overall goal to see n amount of BD publicly executed instead of one specific target, require them to survive to see BD lose, or what have you. The Scorned doesn’t really need an alternative goal as the current one is fine. If you want an alternate goal, make sure that it harms BD and that the Scorned can accomplish it by themselves.

Limiting Defile to 2 to 4 uses (before the target is voted up) would require skillful play. Would that balance it?

That would work, as this require better timing and making sure your accusations would stick to offset the ability’s strength.

#57

The Savior :balance_scale:

Neutral Investigative (Unique)
Resolve (Passive) - Immune to death once
Blood On Their Hands (Day) - If a killer class found by sense of guilt is being lynched, their journals will be wiped and they will appear as Assasin or Cult Leader (automatic depending on the game type). - Infinite uses.
Weight of Guilt (Day) - [Unavailable without valid target]. Choose a player that you know can kill at night. Tonight, if they attempt to kill a target, their attack will be prevented. If you accuse a player that is your target or you know can kill at night, and they are executed, you gain an additional use of this ability. - 3 use.
Sense Guilt (Night) - Visit a player. You will know if they can kill at night. - Infinite uses.
Specter of Justice (Night) - You will attack someone, if they are a killer class then they will be attacked, otherwise the attack will fail. - 3 uses
You win by surviving to see at least six players who are killer class type defeated

#58

Kills self for being kill capable

#59

And as I said below, anti/pro-BD classes are typically absolutes as the entire point of this definition balance-wise is to measure whether or not a neutral class would be instantly executed if they claimed that role publicly and/or if they should be given abilities that can confirm themselves.

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#60

How do you like the new and improved class!