By strong I am referring to his immunity. That was the problem with priest too
Technically more can visit if you have a Drunk/Alcoholic/Invoker.
Because the King shouldn’t be a killing role. Also the fact that EKs can also execute prominent BDs makes it difficult to trust the King at the start, which means it’s difficult to play as GK as you need people’s trust to find leads in order for people to trust you, creating a catch-22.
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Giving the centerpiece of the game the ability to instantly kill up to two players is both incredibly strong in the endgame, as well as just feeling wrong. This also plays into my previous point on the King’s strength inherently breeding swing.
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It’s still mainly a social class, it would just have a single killing ability.
But the point of OE is to kill prominent BDs and harmful neuts. The unseen have no way to kill immune targets early game.
Would it be better if it was one-use?
The fact that you keep saying this over and over tells me you rely overmuch on your own theoretical assessments over what actually happens in the game. With occupation, guarding, healing, redirection, immunities, immunity-bypassing, conversion, anti-conversion and empowering, there is no such thing as a reliable KPN in this game. You can theorise all you want, but the realities of the game are starkly different and incredibly difficult to predict.
This is just VFR, btw, only people anticipate it and just put their opinion out in the open. It’s still the two options I outlined above, either Information In The Open or Information To Trustworthy Player.
King dies to the majority of this too.
Fair enough, I just don’t really think of anything an EK can do for Cult that’s more valuable than making sure those crucial abilities get across.
And making the King too weak makes them a class that is better off dead. I’d rather have a class that’s slightly too powerful and is at risk of being killed than one that’s too weak and is both boring to play for the player that gets it and BD would rather see dead.
Not really, as bussing is a thing that exists and CWs can be converted (or just killed). It’s not really poor play, just distrustful.
The King doesn’t need to be super weak to be pointless. They just need to reach a sufficient point of weakness that the odds of them being evil make them better off dead.
Possessor.
BD reward for not being on actually valuable BD classes. Otherwise there’s no point trying to keep King alive.
That’s not for Unseen. That’s to let EK mimic GK to BD.
Obviously that should be avoided too, although there are better ways to help with this issue than just make the King super strong.
You’ll find it’s a lot harder than it seems. To me, this is the weakest King can possibly be without being better-off dead.
You’re overlooking several other things you can do to help with this - let me look at some of my older posts and grab some stuff so I don’t need to re-type them all.
Information has to flow somehow. I’d rather it be open or at least to a competent player instead of someone just because they rolled a strong class.
Except you can get a new King during the day. If the Prince dies, BD is SOL.
False dilemma. A King should be useful for their faction but shouldn’t be able to single-handedly win games on their night and day actions alone such as single-handedly executing players.
In this case it’s essentially a failure of the Sheriff/Paladin/CWs. There are tools to prevent players from being converted so this shouldn’t be an excuse.
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Long story short, rather than buff all Kings, give the starting BD King a little something extra that the BD don’t like needlessly losing and punish them if they lynch a starting BD King. Now you can have a King weaker than Prince and still keep a lower regicide rate.
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This isn’t up-to-date at all, but it should get the point across if I remember correctly.
https://forum.imperium42.com/t/king-rework-orangeandblack5-edition/40698
For example, pretty much all of the faction-specific abilities need changing. It does seem good enough to make my point though.
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You realise open info has little to no counterplay, right? Everyone has access to it and can check for themselves with chat, dead people’s classes and wills. At least with info-to-a-player, you can do things to that player and to that player’s logs that help stem the flow of information to all BD.
Controlling information to BD for as long as possible is how you win as evil, and open info is basically outside of your control. The only thing you can do is cast suspicion on the source of that info or try and redirect people’s attention and that’s about it, and you can do both of those and more in info-to-a-player.
That straight up doesn’t work on classes like old CW (maybe even current CW?) and current Knight/Princess, whose useful abilities still don’t stop BD from taking them out on the chance they’re evil, whereas classes like Physician, Alchemist and Observer are actually useful enough that they are allowed to live even if suspicion is cast upon them. The class’s ability needs to be significantly strong to deter BD from executing them.
Executing players based on their claim is just bad play in general and will cause more mislynches than finding evils.
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Does it harm you to lynch a Court Wizard more than losing the player and their actions? No.
Would it hurt you to lynch my Good King more than losing the player and their actions? Yes. Royal Blood would permanently lose its effect, and you would forever be stuck with a weaker replacement King, who at best takes away the abilities of another class just like mislynching them would and at worst puts scum in power.
The two situations are hardly comparable.
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Open discourse is much much much more engaging for every single player in the game and is therefore objectively superior.
Something people are not quite taking into consideration is the fact that there are some broad groups of abilities and people have vocally rejected the vast majority of them.
Investigative abilities: People hated the old Allies and don’t want King to be able to garner information mechanically.
Social abilities: People want extremely limited social abilities that don’t encourage “whisper meta” and instead simply empower the King when it comes to voting. This by itself is not terribly useful, as without actual sources of information, the King will just be following along with the majority or relying on their own scumreading.
Killing abilities: Highly controversial.
Offensive abilities: It could be argued there are too many of these already, but it’s a possibility.
Support abilities: These are the only abilities I haven’t seen people hate on, and tbh, reducing the King to an outed Support with some extra Social abilities doesn’t quite seem like enough value for BD.
So what do people want the King to do, then? If they can’t gather information, not mechanically nor via whispers, if they can’t kill at night, and can’t be powerful enough to compete with Prince mechanically, what significant value do they bring to the table to compensate their odds of being not-good?
You will always be at a disadvantage because you’re competing with someone whose claim is actually true. The odds are stacked against you, as BD has ways of checking even the most uncomfirmable of claims. Eventually, open info will take you out. What you’re gambling is that you think you can win the game before that happens. Forgive me if I don’t find that kind of gameplay exciting.
It’s objectively superior for BD, yes, but it’s a race against time for evils, to kill as much Town as possible before you get caught. This was the reason I stopped playing ToS, because it was either open claim D2/D3 or start VFRing so that all the info was on the table, especially with the introduction of Psychic. Being evil meant racing against time and trying to create as much misdirection as possible while trying not to get caught lying when people died and shrunk your claimspace. It was thoroughly unpleasant to play.
IMO support abilities fit far better for the King in order to help him with the town leader idea. Claim and work with a Good King and he’ll support you. If it turns out you’re working with an Evil King, no loss.
See how Kings in FoL work and you’ll understand why this model is typically agreed to be the best.
Eventually, assuming that by the time they see through your lies that they still have numbers. BD essentially lives on borrowed time and if they end up outnumbered, it’s game over for them.
ToS was bad as the limited claimspace essentially made the game into “lynch a RT claim, execute the other.” ToL doesn’t have this issue as the claimspace is essentially infinite provided that you aren’t claiming a role that already has two of it in-game.
shrug
Agree to disagree, I suppose.