[Rework Suggestion] The Princess/The Duchess, more skill and usefulness!

Class/Lore/Fanfic
#1

The intent of this rework is to attempt to keep the Princess as a difficult to confirm role that is still useful to BD, while increasing her skill floor and skill ceiling. As such, I’m proposing the following changes:

The Princess

Blue Dragon Investigative
Royal Blood (Passive) - As a Royal, you can put your name forward for nominations to become the next King.
Will O’ Wisp (Day) - [Unavailable Day 1] Tonight, a loyal wisp will stand guard and notify you of any abilities used on you by Unseen or Cult players. - 5 uses.
Elixir of True Insight (Day) - [Unavailable before Day 3] Drink a powerful elixir that empowers you at a terrible cost. Tonight, your Discern will yield all three clues at once, but you will lose your Royal Blood. - 1 use.
Discern (Night) - Using your sharp people-reading skills, you will discover a clue about a target. You can only discover up to three clues per target. - Infinite uses.
Defeat the Unseen or Cult and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

The Duchess

Unseen Investigative
Royal Blood (Passive) - As a Royal, you can put your name forward for nominations to become the next King. [Only has this if they had it before conversion].
Dark Wisp (Day) - You will uncage a dark wisp tonight, sucking out the light of all Unseen rooms. You will appear as Princess to investigations, the Mastermind as Observer and the Assassin as Knight. - 3 uses.
Draught of Stolen Blood (Day) - [Unavailable before Day 3] You will brew a special potion that can only be completed if the Assassin kills a player with Royal Blood tonight. If you don’t have Royal Blood, you will regain it. If you have Royal Blood, you will grant it to the Assassin. If both you and the Assassin already have Royal Blood, you will grant it to the Mastermind. - 1 use.
Pierce Deception (Night) - You will ruthlessly examine a player, learning their class type. If you target a player that you have already examined with this ability (or with Discern, as a Princess), you will learn their exact class. - Infinite uses.
Defeat the Blue Dragon and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

Clues For Discern

First Clue:

Your target enjoys wielding power over others! They are a Killer or Offensive class.
Your target has a sharp, intelligent mind! They are a Special or Investigative class.
Your target pays a lot of attention to others! They are a Support or Social class.

Second Clue:

Your target has shed blood before! They are a Killer class.
Your target enjoys getting in people’s way! They are an Offensive class.
Your target is a true leader! They are a Special class.
Your target has a deep curiosity! They are an Investigative class.
Your target is dedicated to helping others! They are a Support class.
Your target uses words as their weapon! They are a Social class.

Third Clue:

Note: If both of these clues are applicable, you will receive both.

Your target has a will of steel! They are Immune to Occupation and Redirection.
Your target is in line for the throne! They have Royal Blood.

Note: If neither of these clues apply, you will receive this instead.

Your target appears unremarkable!

Classes ordered by clues:

Special+Immune+Royal= King.
Special+Unremarkable= Mastermind, Cult Leader.
Killer+Immune+Royal= Prince.
Killer+Immune= Hunter, Sorcerer, Possessor, [Killer With Acquired Immunity].
Killer+Unremarkable= Knight, Assassin, Reaper.
Offensive+Immune+Royal= Drunk, Alcoholic, Royal Invoker.
Offensive+Immune= Butler, Servant, Invoker, Poacher, Sellsword, [Offensive With Acquired Immunity].
Offensive+Unremarkable= Herbalist.
Investigative+Immune+Royal= [Investigative Royal With Acquired Immunity].
Investigative+Royal = Royal Princess, Royal Duchess, Royal Seeker.
Investigative+Immune= [Investigative With Acquired Immunity].
Investigative+Unremarkable= Sheriff, Marshall, Observer, Nightwatch, Paladin, Seeker, Inquisitor, Non-Royal Princess, Non-Royal Duchess.
Support+Immune= Mercenary, [Support With Acquired Immunity].
Support+Unremarkable= Physician, Alchemist, Enforcer, Court Wizard, Sage, Ritualist.
Social+Immune+Royal= [Social Royal With Acquired Immunity].
Social+Royal= Noble, Aristocrat, Royal Apostle.
Social+Immune= Scorned, Fool, [Social With Acquired Immunity].
Social+Unremarkable= Mystic, Illusionist, Apostle.

Notes:

Discern

  1. Discern works in stages. The first time you examine someone, you get the first clue. The second time you examine the same target, you get the second clue. The third and future times you examine the same target, you get the second and third clue together.
  2. In an Unseen game, Framing/Mindwarp makes a BD/Neutral target look like the Assassin, while in a Cult game, it makes them look like the Cult Leader.
  3. Mindwarping the Princess while she’s Discerning an Unseen target will make the Mastermind look like the Observer, the Assassin look like the Knight and all other Unseen members look like their pre-conversion classes. In a Cult game, the Seeker will look like the Paladin, the Invoker will look like the Drunk, the Apostle will look like the Mystic, the Ritualist will look like the Court Wizard and the Cult Leader will look like the Observer. This also applies if the Ritualist uses Brotherhood on a player being Discerned by the Princess.
  4. Framing/Mindwarp both affect the results the Princess gets depending on what stage she’s in, as though the target was of a specific class (if the Princess is examining a Physician for the second time, she will get the second clue for Assassin/Cult Leader if a Frame/Mindwarp effect is in play).
  5. Using Elixir of True Insight and being affected by Frame/Mindwarp will yield 3 wrong clues, even if the Princess has already Discerned that target and received correct clues before.
  6. The only time the Princess’s Discern does not progress to the next clue is if the ability is prevented. If she gets any results, whether correct or not, the ability will move on to the next clue when used again on the same target.

Will O’ Wisp

  1. Will O’ Wisp message will be Your Wisp witnessed you being targeted by [ability]! or no message at all if no Cult or Unseen players targeted you with any abilities.
  2. The Wisp message cannot be Mindwarped and will notify you of the use of Mindwarp.
  3. The Wisp will notify you of failed abilities too, including failed conversions and attacks.

Royal Blood

  1. In case it needs to be stated, the ability for the Princess to lose her Royal Blood is deliberate. It serves as a nifty way to empower her investigative abilities once and at a price, and allows evils to claim this role more easily.
  2. If by some reason everyone in the Unseen has Royal Blood, the Draught will do nothing.

I think that’s all, but I will definitely add more if necessary. Feedback is welcome! :smiley:

4 Likes
#2

Why is this limited

#3

Mostly because similar abilities on Nightwatch and Marshall are. I’m following the established trend.

#4

but it doesn’t need to be limited.

#5

I suppose it doesn’t. I’m not terribly invested in it being limited, I just didn’t want the Duchess to be out of line with other Unseen Investigatives. I’ll put it as Infinite uses for the time being, we’ll see what other people think.

#6

I really like this. It adds more skill for the princess and it also requires you to make more decisions like rather to gain more information on a certain target or to investigate someone else.

Also really love the Will O’ Wisp change, making it more useful overall. When i play princess now, I never use it because it has very little need to me.

1 Like
#7

On paper I think this would work but, I would like to see how this plays out in game.

2 Likes
#8

I like the fundimental idea behind this. But I feel like it needs some work on the execution.

For example the results for clue 3 seem arbitrary while right now investigations check for spacific mechanical things to be present (such as type). This system just seems clunky in comparison. Not mention how it tells you a lot without really telling you anything at all.

For example if you make it simply reveal target player’s exact class then people won’t feel the need to be limited by what she finds. Ex: Always claiming Hunter as NK

Of course that might be OP. So depending on how OP people think it is you could either: Remove the Elixer, Instead reveal starting class, or simply reveal faction (so faction and type all together)

#9

Also we could just ditch the 3rd clue entirely. Getting exact type on a second check is already a huge buff.

#10

Btw you could just make it so that if the Duchesses is blocking Royals then they cannot step up during King election from the start. Otherwise it just outs her anyways.

Actually it still does. Why even have it do that?

#11

Make it give the assassin royal blood if you already are royal. (And if he is already Royal too then to bad)

#12

I am not opposed to improve how I’m grouping the classes, I tried to group them by similar abilities (with a couple of notable exceptions, I would have liked to group Sellsword with Butler and Poacher but Herbalist didn’t really fit anywhere).

I thought letting her identify exact class would be a bit too powerful (and diminish the skill required to play her), so grouping certain classes by what they have in common helps her catch someone in a lie (especially in Cult games, you will see that the third clue is a lot more helpful in Cult games than Unseen games) without giving her the power to outright know what someone’s class is.

I think the third clue could be improved in such a way as to be useful without feeling overly arbitrary and I’m open to making it better.

Faction checks are already plentiful (Sheriff, Observer, Inquisitor (sort of), Paladin) and the Princess has a special niche as an Investigative class that makes her very strong against all evils equally, albeit at the cost of having to deduce things herself, so I’m trying to preserve that. The Elixir is also important as a way to let a Princess remove her Royal Blood and make herself less confirmable, allowing evil classes more claimspace.

It’s definitely a buff, but it’s not as powerful as you might think, as there is always an opportunity/action cost associated. Every night you spend narrowing down someone’s class is a night you’re not spending checking someone else, and spending 3 nights to confirm a BD and then watching them die basically wastes your work and makes you look pretty sus, as your logs now look pretty faked. The third clue is supposed to be used infrequently to catch people in a lie, especially late game when you’ve already Discerned most still-alive people once or twice.

Because it allows the Unseen to have an uncontested Evil King and possibly get a mislynch on an actual RB BD. The Prince is unlikely to ever step up, so if you have someone claiming they weren’t allowed to step up (like a Noble or a Drunk), you can say they’re lying and push them to be lynched or killed at night. With you as King, the Mastermind converts someone that night, that BD with RB is killed (ideally), and even if you die the next day, your actions greatly inconvenienced BD and made them waste a day and possibly got a few of them killed in the process.

If you have no other RBs that could dispute you (because the Draught requires a RB BD to be killed, so it’s possible you can just have no opponents), you just become an Evil King automatically, which is a pretty good thing for the Unseen.

Besides, you can just step up near the end of the timer to avoid giving yourself away if you know you can’t get the court to turn on a confirmed BD with Royal Blood. It’s an effect you have some degree of control over, so you can choose to either step up first to block the other Royals or step up near the end to conceal that you have that effect.

That’s a potential ability, but perhaps works better for the Mastermind than the Assassin? What Royal Blood claim could the Assassin make?

#13

Princess, Drunk, Noble, Prince, Fuck it I have majority once I’m king.

Remember that as a King you only need to explain past actions and you don’t need to upkeep your logs. So you can claim Drunk and have a buddy back you up for a night or 2 and then just have an explanation for the rest.

As for Prince you can’t be jailed if you are King and so the real Prince needs to out to kill you.

(For fun. Try outing as having been jailed when you are Unseen after a Prince steps up)

#14

That’s valid, I suppose, and it’s better to have the Assassin as Evil King than the Mastermind, as they can keep converting.

I’ll leave it as-is for the time being to get more feedback; if more people agree with you, I’ll change it.

1 Like
#15

Actually here is an idea. 3rd check tells you if the target is royal, occupy immune, or both.

#16

Remember that the Mastermind does not appear occupy immune. (But if you found a special then it’s obviously him)

#17

Oh, that’s an interesting idea. You could also add something like “Immune to bleed/poison” as well. I still think it should give some clue for classes that are none of these (especially Neutral classes, since Princess is the only BD Investigative class that can really figure out what a Neutral is), but it’s not a bad start for a third clue rework.

1 Like
#18

So 3rd clue returns one of these lists effectively:

(Prince)
(Mastermind, Cult leader)
(Hunter, Sorcerer, Possessor)
(Knight, Assassin, Reaper)
(Princess/Duchess, Royal Seeker)
(Sheriff/Marshal, Observer/Nightwatch, Paladin, Seeker, Inquisitor)
(Mercenary)
(Physician/Herbalist, Alchemist, Sage/CW, Ritualist, Enforcer)
(Drunk/Alchaholic, Royal Invoker)
(Butler/Servant, Poacher, Sellsword, Invoker)
(Noble/Aristocrat, Royal Apostle)
(Fool, Scorned)
(Mystic/Illusionist, Apostle)

1 Like
#19

Not this one spacificaly, that would make Sorcerer in a list alone.

#20

Btw note how this groups fake claims with classes that claim them better than your original one does