Saru’s Classes - BD Social and Converts

Class/Lore/Fanfic
#1

Here’s my attempt at creating a few BD-aligned Social classes. I’m somewhat unhappy with the Magistrate’s capability of being able to confirm themselves, however since his entire raison d’etre is directing lynches then he had to have some level of confirm-ability otherwise I can’t see a way of this class working.

So I’ve reworked the Magistrate to be less of a vote manipulator while at the same time keeping his idea as a lynch director. He’s less useless than before but unfortunately the reworked class may end up encouraging mass-claims.

The Magistrate :shield:

Blue Dragon Social
Prestige (Passive) - Only one class with Prestige can spawn the entire game.
Judicial Decree (Day) - Allows the court to have an additional trial. - 2 uses
Subpoena (Day) - Automatically puts a player on trial. - 2 uses
Disenfranchise (Night) - Allows a second execution if not all trials were used and the Magistrate’s target for the night was executed and a BD-aligned class. - Infinite uses
Impeachment (Night) - Prevents the King from using an ability this night and disables their abilities the following day. - 2 uses
Defeat the Unseen or Cult and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

Converts to:

The Judge :shield:

Unseen Social
Prestige (Passive) - Only one class with Prestige can spawn the entire game.
Judicial Corruption (Day) - Reduces the amount of trials a day that can happen to one. - 2 uses
Subpoena (Day) - Automatically puts a player on trial. - 2 uses
Disenfranchise (Night) - Allows a second execution if not all trials were used and the Magistrate’s target for the night was executed and a BD-aligned class. - Infinite uses
Judicial Tyranny (Night) - If the target player is voted up the next day then they will automatically be executed. - 1 use
Defeat the Blue Dragon and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

The Coroner

Blue Dragon Social
Grave Focus (Day) - In addition to the results from Exhume or Forensics, the Coroner will also learn the class of their target’s killer. - 2 uses
Exhume (Night) - Selects a deceased player and the Coroner will learn of all system messages the target received the night they died. - Infinite uses
Forensics (Night) - Selects a deceased player and the Coroner will learn of every player that visited the target during the entire match. Can only be used on players that died the fourth night or later. - 1 use
Defeat the Unseen or Cult and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

Converts to:

The Undertaker

Unseen Offensive
Embalm (Day) - If a player is executed, then they will flip a class of the Undertaker’s choosing. Usable during trials. - One use.
Exhume (Night) - Selects a deceased player and the Undertaker will learn of all system messages the target received the night they died. - Infinite uses
Grave Robbing (Night) - If the targeted player dies at night, then their logs will appear blank. - Infinite uses
Defeat the Blue Dragon and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

The Librarian :shield:

Blue Dragon Social
Prestige (Passive) - Only one class with Prestige can spawn the entire game.
Repository (Passive) - The Librarian starts in a public log network by himself. Players in the network will be allowed to read the logs of any other player in the network. The Repository remains open while the Librarian is still alive regardless if they have been converted.
Archive (Day) - Invites a player to the log network. The player must accept before joining and can choose to leave at anytime. Can only invite two players per day. - Infinite uses
Revoke (Night) - Removes a player from the log network. - Infinite uses
Shut Down (Night) - Deactivates Unseen’s day chat for the nextday. - 1 use
Defeat the Unseen or Cult and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

Converts to:

The Archivist :shield:

Unseen Social
Prestige (Passive) - Only one class with Prestige can spawn the entire game.
Concealed Access (Passive) - Allows all Unseen members to read the logs on the public log network. Can also use both day abilities during the same day.
Prince’s Notes (Day) - Allows the Archivist to gain a log on the Prince’s conversation with his prisoner this coming night. - 3 uses
Archive (Day) - Invites a player to the log network. The player must accept before joining and can choose to leave at anytime. Can only invite two players per day. - Infinite uses
Revoke (Night) - Removes a player from the log network. - Infinite uses
Censorship (Night) - Deletes a target’s logs if they die the same night. - 2 uses
Defeat the Blue Dragon and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.*

1 Like
#2

I just skimmed through this and I’ll probably get back to it later but I really like the general idea, I love how you are creative with introducing new social abilities. Social abilities are my favorite :slight_smile:

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#3

Of these 6 classes the Coroner is really good but the rest just aren’t.

All of them have fundimental problems some of which used to exist but were removed because they were bad.

Besides the Undertaker who is bad for balence reasons.

2 Likes
#4

Spacificaly the Magistrate’s niche used to be filled by the Noble but was removed because it was boring until late game where he was OP. This one is worse because he isn’t worth extra votes but even if he did it wouldn’t solve the problem.

The librarian is ALSO filling the niche of a Noble (funny how that works). Her problems are that A: Snoop is something that forces Scum to claim in a way that is harmful to the game (in addition to being impossible to reliably fake). And B: Seeing the Unseen chat ruins the whole point of having one and is a huge no no.

3 Likes
#5

Also the Marshal already has Snoop for scum. So ya

1 Like
#6

I can’t say I disagree with you.

For the Magistrate, the entire point of that class is that I wanted to make a class who’s purpose is directing the court and evidence rather than the Noble’s crude mish-mash of a kit that was supposed to focus on vote manipulation but basically became useless in the actual game. Thing is he’s too situational as unless you have evils coordinating to split votes and the like has no value to BD. I can see this working in turbo from time to time where BD can’t even get a player up succesfully because of sheer disorganization and spam, but in most times he’d be too useless and would become just an auto-confirmed player, kind of like the old Noble.

For the Librarian, I was focusing on adding a snoop-based class, but as you said in a game with experienced players it’d end up becoming one of the most confirm-able classes possible. For seeing the evil faction chat, I was attempting to recreate part of the ability from ToS’s spy without making it too overbearing to the point that it absolutely shuts down evil chat just by existing, which is why I added the D1 and D2 restrictions to allow the evils to plan out their claims and limited to one use.

In short, it’s pretty much why I hate BD-aligned social classes. It’s extremely difficult to make them not easily confirmed and much of their niche is just situational at times. Usually the only Social classes that are good typically rely solely on system messages, such as your idea of a Messanger class or the Coroner. The current Noble is still bad as he still has Political Pressure.

Hell, the entire strength of the Mystic is that she’s automatically confirmed as not even her converted variants can link minds.

And yeah. Remember why I was so adamant against that day ability for the Scorned in that past rework thread? I ran a few theory test runs of each class trying to imagine how they would fare in a typical ToL game and an Undertaker with a multi-use day defile could pretty much repeatedly get BD members lynched and get Unseen to confirm themselves, which is why IMO the ability needs to be seriously limited if it’s going to exist.

Plus, did you check my Investiagitive roles? I would love more feedback from you.

#7

Actually my problem with the Undertaker is his night Ability’s and it’s fairly simple to fix. Simply give him the Coroners main night Ability and forgery from your other rework and problem solved.

#8

I don’t think I know what you are talking about. Can you post the link?

#9

I think hes/shes talking about this, @Alice?

https://forum.imperium42.com/t/sarus-classes-bd-investigative-and-converts/67387?u=htm

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#10

Here are my thoughts, for what it’s worth. The summary is, I like highlighting a player’s chat. I like reading a player’s logs, as long as it’s single-use only (to address all of NuclearBurrito’s concerns).

I like learning the class of a dead person’s killer. I’m okay with learning of the system messages a dead person received, and I’m okay with Forensics (learning of all visitors to a target which occurred throughout the entire match). I don’t see a reason for it to be limited to N4 or later though. If you use it N1 it’s just a weaker Obs Follow.

I’m okay with listening in on Prince’s conversation with his prisoner as long as this requires correctly predicting who gets jailed.

Long version:

The Magistrate

I don’t see why he has to be occupation and redirect immune. You say it’s to prevent Disenfranchise getting messed with, but why shouldn’t be evils be able to mess with a Magistrate or good people be allowed to mess with a converted one?

I like highlighting a player’s chat for a day.

I think preventing anyone from being voted up except two people is overpowered though.

Preventing a player from voting and readjusting the total number of accusations required to put someone on trial … How would this work? If there are 6 players and one is prevented, does that mean it only takes 3 players to put someone up? It seems like readjusting the votes required defeats the entire purpose of preventing someone from voting in the first place, since now we don’t even need their vote to put a person up.

Preventing the King from using abilities for a night and a day seems very unfun for King. I would make it only work for either one night or one day, and be single-use.

The Judge

Revealing King’s faction with 100% certainty I do not support, even for a converted class. It makes social deduction less important and also takes away a lot of the suspense from the perspective of Unseen.

Decide Fate is such a hugely impactful ability that I don’t want anyone but the King to have it. It’s also important in revealing the faction of the King, and I don’t think there should be any confusion about whether it was actually the King who used it.

The Coroner

I like learning the class of the victim’s killer. Learning of all system messages the target received the night they died seems interesting.

Learning of every player who visited someone throughout the entire game is interesting as well.

The Undertaker

While flipping a fake class upon execution seems very fun for Unseen, I think executions are the time when the truth should come out and BD should be rewarded for a good execution with more clarity, not more confusion.

Desecrate is literally a copy of Herbalist’s Defile, I think we can be more creative here.

Erasing a dead player’s logs seems too frustrating for the victim. Only Possessor can do it at the moment and I think that’s okay because NK is supposed to be extremely powerful.

The Librarian

Occupation and redirect immunity is absolutely needed because for some reason people stop paying attention to their chat logs when a log-reading ability is used, making mislynches because of target swapping stupidly common.

I don’t understand this at all, to be honest. Why should this class be immune to interference from his enemies?

Listening in on the evil faction’s night chat is very overpowered and very unfun for evils.

I like Archive a lot. It’s just Snoop but renamed. However I would make it single-use to prevent the meta of everyone tediously writing a secret code in their logs, and to avoid confirmation that you actually started as Librarian so that evils can fake-claim it.

The Archivist

Honestly not sure what I think about letting evils listen in on Prince’s conversation with his prisoner. Maybe only let it work if the Archivist successfully predicts who gets jailed that night?

Erasing target’s logs … I already explained that I think this is very unfun for the victim and too powerful to be available to anyone but Possessor.

Almost no reason for having “erase a player’s logs” and “edit a player’s logs” be two different abilities, since the second can accomplish the first. I think it’s overpowered and only belongs on a Neutral Killer like Possessor.

#11

The Magistrate
I don’t see why he has to be occupation and redirect immune. You say it’s to prevent Disenfranchise getting messed with, but why shouldn’t be evils be able to mess with a Magistrate or good people be allowed to mess with a converted one?
I like highlighting a player’s chat for a day.
I think preventing anyone from being voted up except two people is overpowered though.
Preventing a player from voting and readjusting the total number of accusations required to put someone on trial … How would this work? If there are 6 players and one is prevented, does that mean it only takes 3 players to put someone up? It seems like readjusting the votes required defeats the entire purpose of preventing someone from voting in the first place, since now we don’t even need their vote to put a person up.
Preventing the King from using abilities for a night and a day seems very unfun for King. I would make it only work for either one night or one day, and be single-use.

The vote prevention is essentially discounting the vote of a selected player, though I’m reworking the Magistrate and its Unseen counterpart. Adding redirection immunity was due to this class’ partly offensive nature. Ultimately the class is going to be reworked less of a vote manipulator and will work more akin to SC2Mafia’s Marshall. The Judge will also get a rework as well.

I don’t understand this at all, to be honest. Why should this class be immune to interference from his enemies?
Listening in on the evil faction’s night chat is very overpowered and very unfun for evils.
I like Archive a lot. It’s just Snoop but renamed. However I would make it single-use to prevent the meta of everyone tediously writing a secret code in their logs, and to avoid confirmation that you actually started as Librarian so that evils can fake-claim it.

Ever played a game before the Noble rework where they would end up executing innocent BD members because the Noble saw them having Drunk logs and it end up that they got redirected? For some reason people didn’t pay attention to their system chat and this would happen too way too often, even though Snoop was only a limited use ability. I hate balance changes that result from player idiocy like what happened to the Fool’s Surprise Mojo, but this one’s kind of necessary.

Plus, making a single-use snoop still doesn’t solve the issue of forcing evils into a static claim and the Librarian would still need another ability. I plan on reworking the Librarian from the ground up as this class resulted far worse than I thought as I tried to put two nerfed toxic mechanics into a class in order to try to make it work, which in the end it didn’t.

I’m still brainstorming ways to make a potential log-based class to work. I’d imagine that a Mystic-like neighbourizer who can create a network where every joined player, who accepts of course, can read each other’s logs may be interesting, albeit it would be too easily confirmed like the Mystic itself. Though, just spitballing ideas here.

#12

Ever played a game before the Noble rework where they would end up executing innocent BD members because the Noble saw them having Drunk logs (but didn’t realize their target was changed) and it end up that they got redirected?

Exactly once. I don’t think it’s a problem and besides it can happen with any ability, like Sheriff check, but we don’t need to modify Sheriff to account for this either.

Plus, making a single-use snoop still doesn’t solve the issue of forcing evils into a static claim

That’s true but it certainly mitigates it to a great extent, since until and unless the Librarian is executed and class flips as a Librarian, there’s no proof he isn’t lying about having snooped. With the introduction of Librarian you will probably see a lot of Scorneds claiming it, since this will allow them to pass the Flirt test.

#13

So I’ve reworked the Magistrate to be less of a vote manipulator while at the same time keeping his idea as a lynch director, partially inspired by SC2Mafia’s Marshall for the original class and Judge for the Unseen convert. He’s less useless than before but unfortunately the reworked class may end up encouraging mass-claims.

The Magistrate :shield:

Blue Dragon Social
Prosecutor (Passive) - Allows the Magistrate to speak during the defense phase in trials. This passive remains even if the Magistrate changes classes, is converted, or gets possessed.
Judicial Decree (Day) - Allows the court to have a second execution provided that they did not waste all of their trials for the day. - 2 uses
Disenfranchise (Night) - Reduces the votes required to put the target player up on trial by one. If Judicial Decree was activated then the target player will be allowed to be put up without using a trial. - Infinite uses
Impeachment (Night) - Prevents the King from using an ability this night and disables their abilities the following day. - 2 uses
Defeat the Unseen or Cult and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

Converts to:

The Judge :shield:

Unseen Social
Prosecutor (Passive) - Allows the Judge to speak during the defense phase in trials. This passive remains even if the Magistrate changes classes, is converted, or gets possessed.
Judicial Corruption (Day) - Reduces the amount of trials a day that can happen to one. - 2 uses
Disenfranchise (Night) - Reduces the votes required to put the target player up on trial by one. - Infinite uses
Judicial Tyranny (Night) - For the next day, all votes will be anonymous and the trial phase will be skipped directly to an execution if a player is voted up. For the day to end a player must be executed. - 2 uses.
Defeat the Blue Dragon and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

1 Like
#14

Wow, I like your new Magistrate and Judge a thousand times better! These are really, really great ideas! :heart_eyes:

Could you post a new topic with a poll for people to vote whether they support adding these two classes to the game?

#15

A bit better but still bad. Platform is just pointless and confirmable. Just remove it because he’s fucked if converted to assassin/CL. Hell he’s even fucked if he becomes apostle RN.

Also adding more trials is like adding more Unseen/Cult night kills. OP AF. Make it like bounty where the condition is the lynched player being BD rather than having enough trials.

#16

A bit better but still bad. Platform is just pointless and confirmable. Just remove it because he’s fucked if converted to assassin/CL. Hell he’s even fucked if he becomes apostle RN.

Oops, meant to change Platform before to fit his new day ability but only now I noticed that I forgot about it. The replaced passive should also make claiming Magistrate semi-viable if converted. The Judge probably still needs a few other abilities as Judicial Tyranny outs them harder than Mental Blur.

Also adding more trials is like adding more Unseen/Cult night kills. OP AF. Make it like bounty where the condition is the lynched player being BD rather than having enough trials.

Changed yet again as I didn’t think the side-effects of that ability out thoroughly. That state of Disenfranchise would have only encouraged VFR. For the conditional extra trials and the two bonus executions I don’t think that it’d be too strong in ToL as the average skill level of the player-base here wouldn’t be high enough for them to use it at its full potential.

#17

I’m referring to it’s endgame potential. Spacificaly his Ability’s can allow him to win a 2v3 or 3v4 along with a good king every time and can let you win a 4v6 if you have 2 nobles and a King (if you try that now you wouldn’t be able to execute them fast enough) and makes CC’s hell for scum.

#18

I’m referring to it’s endgame potential. Spacificaly his Ability’s can allow him to win a 2v3 or 3v4 along with a good king every time

Hmm, didn’t really plan out his end-game that well. I’d imagine that scenario wouldn’t be uncommon as a Magistrate’s power would warrant him to be more guarded than a Noble, and it’s basically the same issue of the old Noble being able to 1v1 anyone who’s not the King by making them vote for themselves.

and can let you win a 4v6 if you have 2 nobles and a King

Tbf, this scenario puts in a multi-lyncher with 2 vote manipulators and a King. The previous one was a better example as it didn’t rely on extreme situations like this.

Overall, I’ll tone down his late-game as it’s a bit too good right now for a class that can remain useful during the entire match.

Also do you think it’s advantageous to remove or tune down some of his abilities in trying to reduce how easily he can confirm himself? It’s impossible for a lynch-directed class to be silent so I’m somewhat split on whether I should try to minimize his confirm-ability while sacrificing game-play or attempting to make the class easily-confirmable but distinct.