Scum having no excuse to avoid proving themselves with abilities

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

I don’t like how hard it is to get away with faking a claim when demanded to prove yourself. I think how big it is now removes some of the social deduction aspect of the game. There is almost no reason to let a Noble claim get away without force voting on request, for instance, or a Psychic using Telepathy to identify herself. I think it would be great if such abilities were given just a single charge and made more powerful (if needed) in order to compensate, it would be an improvement.

This way scum would have a plausible reason for declining to prove themselves (they don’t want to waste their ability). Right now if a Noble claim declines to force vote to prove himself, it’s suicide (if the players are experienced).

What do y’all think?

EDIT: After thinking over it a couple more minutes I figured I don’t think the best judgement can be made on this subject anyways until we get a vet lobby. But I can’t find a delete button lol

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#2

elpises, there should be a trash can button. If not you can probably get a mod to lock and unlist it

#3

Well it’s still a problem we can talk about so we may as well talk about it.

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SFoL11 UltimatePick - Game Over! (:IciHeadBanging:)
#4

First of all the main problem in your OP was confirmable DAY Ability’s. Night Ability’s can be like “Ok I can confirm myself. Just let me do it and everything will be fine” and then you kill the person you said you were going to use it on. Or you convert him and have him confirm. Or whatever, there are things you can do already.

Here is a list of everyone who can be confirmed in the day with a day Ability:

Butler, Noble, Psychic

One by one:

Butler - Solution is simple because it already exists in Unseen games. Just have the assassin poison king and you are good. Cult just needs to have the effect of rapture be poison if used on King to be good for this.

Noble - Replace the day Ability’s with something else entirely. No one won’t notice vote manipulation even if you make it hidden. What to replace it with requires more time and deserves its own post.

Psychic - Having one unique class not be fakeable is fine. Just give the Apostle her day Ability’s after removing the noble’s and you are good.

Another solution (not mutually exclusive) is a class who’s day Ability disables someone else’s without telling them until they use the ability. Just make it an offensive BD, make Invoker bewilder silent and able to target anyone and you are already done.

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#5

Dude, I like your solution: Give an evil class for both Unseen & Cult the ability to temporarily disable a player’s day abilities. Basically Bewilder, but able to target a specific player! I think this is a great idea!

#6

Blue dragon too remember. It’s useful for stopping poisons and such.

#7

Nuclear Burrito made such a good point I want to keep this thread open now =D Thanks though!

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#9

It sounds great, just don’t remove the prince day ability…

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#10

It would be limited use and no one is going to use it randomly. If it is really a problem then we could make an exception for prince, but being able to disable the princes jail is a big reason to want that class as a convert.

Remember it only disables it for a day. Like this:

Day ability: Confound - Disable the target’s day ability’s. They will not be told unless they try to use a day ability (2 uses)

Bewilder would be changed to the same thing with 1 use.

#11

I thought we were just making Bewilder targetable? Personally I think disabling Prince’s jail is too OP. I also think 2 uses is OP. :yum: But I still think your basic idea is a genius solution to the problem.

What is the reason for not being told their ability is disabled until they use it? I know Bewilder at the moment warns the King immediately.

#12

Think about what everyone else sees: You claim a class, they tell you to prove it, you find out you can’t, everyone executes you. Also bewilder still has 1 use. It’s the BD and Unseen versions that would have 2.

#13

https://forum.imperium42.com/t/class-suggestion-the-escort-retainer/44126/1

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#14

There is that class idea I was talking about.

#15

It used to exist. Now the system tells the king if it was butler or assassin.

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#16

Really? Well the system is still possible so my suggestion stands.

#17

That should really be reverted. What’s the point of it? Making it harder for evils to fake isn’t a good direction to go in. (Granted, butler poison kills faster, but so what, it’s not the end of the world if the King doens’t realize, and the uncertainty of how someone dies would keep it from being a giveaway.)

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#18

I believe it was the butler poison acceleration (intent wasn’t to make the butler more confirmable, was intended to make poisoning an evil king not take so long that you still lose). perhaps a solution to keep the best of both worlds would be.

  1. no poisons/bleeds can be applied within the last 15 seconds of a day.
  2. King has a new passive “day vulnerability”, if harmed during the day, the king will die that night unless treated, in addition he is unable to tell what kind of injury he sustained.
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#19

I don’t think it’s necessary to do anything so fancy. Just make the messages the same and allow the poison timers to be different with no warning or explanation - it doesn’t give people that much information, and if they can reason something out from that or a Butler can trick the King into thinking he has one more night than he does, good for them. (Especially since the King will likely get healed immediately if a healer exists anyway.)

EDIT: Also, in response to the basic idea here, perhaps we need an evil who can block someone from using any Day abilities (can’t be used on King.) It could be given to the Scorned, one of the Cult, and maybe an NK - giving it to multiple people would keep its use from being a giveaway and would ensure that people can always claim to have been hit by it. It’s not a terribly powerful ability, since you’d need to know to use it in advance, so I think it could be given to several people.

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#20

Someone on discord (RHcube I think) suggested that Butler should get that instead of nightshade wine killing 2 birds with 1 stone. Basically it disables targets day Ability’s and doesn’t inform them until they try to use it (which leads to it’s use being wasted). Invoker could have Bewilder changed to work like that. And TBH why NOT let it target king? It would be a useful possablely for Possessor to take advantage of. I would also be ok with Scorned having it and having Reaper chill have that as an additional effect. In this line CW/Sage/Ritualist could have a limited use day barrier that makes the target immune to limited use day Ability’s (not jail/Scout)

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#21

I’m not sure blocking day abilities is something BD needs. I mean… it could lock down a few nasty abilities, but do we want that? Is it necessary? The point here is to give evils an excuse for not using their abilities, not to add another tool to BD’s toolkit.

Also, Butlers could use it to prove, even if it’s silent (wasting an ability is worth it, and they could use it on the king to block Royal Finger, which the king doesn’t need most days.)

For that excuse to work, it also has to be widely-available. If the only evil class that has it is Servants, claims that it was used on you wouldn’t be credible. Giving it to eg. the Scorned instead makes it far more believable (and I’d even give it to a few other people, like the Cult Leader or something, so there’s a decent chance of it flying around and people have to take that seriously - someone who would have an incentive to try and block any BD confirm attempts, so either CL, Assassin, Mastermind, or an NK. Maybe Mastermind and one of the Cult converted classes, since they appear more often than individual Unseen converted classes.)

The problem with letting it target kings, I guess, is that it makes it a much more powerful ability, since it entirely eliminates the king’s advantage in late-game standoffs and removes the pressure evils have to kill him before then. This makes it harder to give it to a lot of people, which I feel is necessary for it to do its job of making day-ability confirmation unreliable - for it to work, there has to be a reasonable probability that someone is around who will immediately block you when someone demands you prove.

Like, no way we could give it to the MM or CL if it worked on kings, since having it be almost guaranteed that would negate one of the key points of kings. But if it didn’t work on kings, it becomes a fairly minor ability that is only likely to be used when BD demands someone proves themselves, since there are few other BD with really important day abilities, and few enough BD day abilities overall that using it blindly isn’t likely to accomplish much.

(Oh, also, it doesn’t work on the Prince. Obviously.)

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