[SFM] Newbie-Friendly Pokèmon 9er - Town Win

[WindwardAway]

Which 100% makes me a hypocrite for being rough on other newbies

[kiromishiro21]

lie because you’re so good.
That is a lie because you are so good. I caught you

[kiromishiro21]

I want to hear from everyone. Who else thinks that I am scum?

[WindwardAway]

Well xD considering I mislynched twice, idk about that, but I did aim to have everything figured out by D3.

[WindwardAway]

Gorta, do you have an updated readlist yet?

[kiromishiro21]

@WindwardAway

I probably started playing Mafia at parties/teambuilding events a long time ago, so I’m pretty familiar with it, but I got much more into social deduction games in the last couple years. My friends and I play a ton of board games so we have a lot of social deduction games like the One Night series, Avalon, The Resistance, Coup, etc.

You said it was your first game here but you’re clearly not a noob. You know very well what you are doing. Like I said before … If you turn out to be a mafia … gg. I don’t like to change my mind about what I think. That’s why it’s hard to see yourself as a mafia now

[an_gorta_pratai]

I fell asleep if we are being honest

[WindwardAway]

That’s OK lol

[an_gorta_pratai]

I did notice something going through Kiro’s ISO. Kiro doesn’t say anything about Arctic, which I don’t know what I feel about

[an_gorta_pratai]

Like sometimes wolves won’t mention their partner, sometimes they try to save their partner, sometimes they bus their partner, and other such things. The thing I don’t know is what kind of player Kiro is as a wolf.

[an_gorta_pratai]

Are you there? I want opinions on my thing. You are the only one I trust right now

[WindwardAway]

Yep, I’m here. Gonna get back on my computer in a couple minutes so I can properly do stuff.

[WindwardAway]

@an_gorta_pratai

Like sometimes wolves won’t mention their partner, sometimes they try to save their partner, sometimes they bus their partner, and other such things. The thing I don’t know is what kind of player Kiro is as a wolf.

This is also what I’ve been trying to figure out, but right now he’s just plain not saying anything at all except changing his mind to say I’m sus, so he’s not really giving any last-minute hints anymore.

@kiromishiro21

Town
WindwardAway [It’s almost impossible for him to be an evil tracker] - Kiro [v_v]
Artic[You were at the top of the min list] - Appel [ He seems town]
An_Gorta_Pratai[Do you want to push me? You voted weird] - YouButWorse [Scum?= idk]
ClonedCheese[I think you want to confuse everyone and you are making a move of 500 iq but very risky]
Scum

He did put Arctic and Appel on the same level in his reading, both townleaning, and then put you and Worse under that, both scumleaning. All four of you are basically in the middle range. His reading on Arctic seems to be based on Min’s reading of Arctic, which is not a lot to go off since Min flipped town. His reading on you was a little questionable, but we were all questioning you at that point. His reading on Worse is just “scum? idk” lol.

So now, I’m going back a little to read what Gorta and Appel wrote on each other and what everyone else said about it.

@an_gorta_pratai

The reason I think Appel/Kiro is very likely the team is that yesterday Appel started the vote on me, Kiro jumped on board, later when I voted Cloned Kiro then jumped to cloned and stayed there. Appel started the day out pushing me and hasn’t let up/is being dishonest about my slot. She falsely claims that I called for blood in the Wind/Cloned conflict, that I never cared for my reads (after my screw up), and that I never considered worlds in which cloned/wind could both be town. Her push on me reeks of scum pushing someone that is easy to get rid of. Appel could easily be coaching Kiro right now

@an_gorta_pratai

People act like my vote makes me scum, but people are ignoring Kiro’s vote on me -> cloned with almost no reasoning. That’s partially because Appel didn’t blow up the issue

@Arctic

i feel like out of gorta and appel one is almost certainly mafia

@an_gorta_pratai

If I recall correctly they did the whole “guys Silviu is scum angle” first and also initiated the whole Wind/Cloned conflict from what I can tell.

@an_gorta_pratai

You have to understand that if Appel was town/had accurate reads she would be dead today. She has the most experience here. Me and Cloned have some experience, but a few games ago we spent the entire game almost death tunneling a towny.

@an_gorta_pratai

In the past I have been partially at fault for having ok reads and not pushing them, that’s why I want Appel out so much.

@Arctic

i have to say i kinda agree with this
min and appel were fairly similar in terms of where people read them d1
so i was surprised they killed a newbie over appel

however we did say that this may be because min’s reads were on-point with who is actually mafia

@an_gorta_pratai

Appel actually did such mindgames in previous games before (killing someone with bad reads so people get mislynched) if I recall correctly

@YoubutWorse

Im more than willing to vote Appel, if they flip town I think we gain as much info as we would if they were to flip Maf

@an_gorta_pratai

I remember Appel killing in certain ways to make people think the wolves were a specific player

@Arctic

the only reason i am not concerned by you following gorta here is the fact that i almost certainly know you and gorta aren’t both mafia from your push on him d1

@Arctic

and since you are willing to vote appel, that leaves the possible scum options for me as

appel and kiro (or cloned?)
gorta and kiro (or cloned?)
you and kiro (or cloned?)

i just realised kiro appeared in all 3 of these lmao

but equally kiro could be the real PR and cloned could be the mafia PR

so i’m pretty sure out of gorta and appel there is a scum, and out of kiro and cloned there is a scum

So from Gorta’s reasoning, Appel was scum because she was pushing on him and because she’s a sneaky wolf. He mentioned he thought Appel/Kiro could be w/w for that matter.

@Arctic

if gorta was scum and knew cloned was doing an RT on windward, why would he push for a vote between those two if he knew neither was going to be lynched once clone came clean? it would make more sense for the mafia to be more reserved in that situation so as not to look suspicious once clone outted it was fake

unless, however, there really is a framer who was on windward and the mafia thought cloned would check them but it turned out cloned was protective. this would mean that mafia would likely push for a vote between these two

however this still doesn’t make sense with gorta being mafia, because as windward said he thought cloned was protective, so why would he frame windward instead of cloned?

Related, here was Arctic’s logic on why Gorta wouldn’t necessarily be a more likely wolf than Appel.

@Appelsiini

“Appel has done this as a wolf”
“Appel has done that as a wolf”

“I screwed up with my vote, but I think Appel is a wolf for scumreading me”

Your whole argument is based on how I’m supposedly in my wolf range, rather than actually finding me wolfy – save for my push on you.

@Appelsiini

Gorta, I can’t be bothered to go grab the post, but you talked about how I’m scum with Kiro. If that’s the case, why was I arguing against letting people townread Kiro? Why do I keep putting them in PoE? Depending on your reads, why am I not putting others below them – for example, why didn’t I immediately jump on Arctic’s tone in order to have a reason to justify a push on them? The thing I talked about in my wallpost. Your read is extremely narrow when it comes to me.

I only skimmed through EoD, the reason I’ve been focusing on you is because I was so baffled by you voting your highest townread, lead by your biggest scumread. I literally explained this.

@Appelsiini

I will analyze this when I feel like it. Right now, I feel like I’m being forced into this comversation because when I come to see how things are going, I see Gorta blatantly shading and scumreading me for reasons that don’t make sense if you actually bothered to think about it.

@an_gorta_pratai

@Appelsiini

Your whole argument is based on how I’m supposedly in my wolf range, rather than actually finding me wolfy – save for my push on you. It irritates me.

I’ll get there, but my gut is rarely wrong

@an_gorta_pratai

You’re larger wall post on me was full of slander. Like when you claimed I was out for blood and just jumped on the conflict and never left it.

@Appelsiini

@an_gorta_pratai

I’ll make a case. The thing is that I have some experience with Appel and I was in a game with her in which she purposely didn’t kill someone to put suspicion on them.

Once again, great job shading me. This argument, in its very core, is: “Appel has done something as town, something weird happened so Appel is a wolf wolf wolf”

On an unrelated note, this seems like you know exactly why Min was killed, as you obviously seem to know that me being a wolf is the omly possible reason. I’m too tired for this

@an_gorta_pratai

I am saying I wouldn’t put it past you to kill Min to frame me because you have done this kind of stuff as a wolf before

I have to honestly stay, I still feel like Appel didn’t have the strongest counterarguments against Gorta. Sure, she flipped town, but I think part of the problem was that Gorta was throwing so much shade at her for being a “sneaky wolf” in previous games that I didn’t really question his reasoning strongly enough. I know Arctic and I both read through some old games, and I still wasn’t super convinced Appel wasn’t a wolf from that.

She had a point, though that Gorta might have known the actual reason Min specifically was killed and not her. And for that matter, Appel was an easier mislynch than Min during the day because Gorta had “evidence” he’d stacked up against her from previous games that most of the rest of us hadn’t seen.

@Appelsiini

Yes. You’re basing your whole argument on “this is possible” and treating it as the truth, without even having looked at any other possibilities. You keep pushing someone, based on that argument. You keep mentioning it to others, just to make sure they don’t forget that Appel also does this as a wolf. Do you understand why that strategy is flawed, if I spell it out for you that way by summarizing your actions?

Here’s a question. Why can’t it be someone else wanting to frame you?

I was openly pushing you and had you at the bottom, while Min had you above the PRs and did not push you, which would make them a less obvious kill.

I have obviously been pushing you, so if I’m a wolf, my plan is to miscuddle you. Why would I, as a wolf, kill Min? Someone who would have you as their biggest scumread when the PRs are removed?

Even such a simple thought process as this shows immediately how narrow your read is. You’re deliberately trying to make me suspicious, and discrediting me because I scumread you.

And she was right about this, as well, and I’d also pointed out Min’s last readlist. Gorta was at the bottom of it with the exception of Cloned and me.

@WindwardAway

@an_gorta_pratai

Min having the 2 prs and someone who is a very easy mislynch is a great kill if you want to frame several people.

The other thing with Min being a night kill is by today, it would’ve been harder to frame Min as a mislynch as well. Min is very observant and gathers a lot of information, and by this point they would have had a stronger opinion on who is or isn’t scum, plus there’s a chance they might have noticed something the rest of us have missed. I wouldn’t put it past the scum to figure that out and decide to get Min out early.

^ Hard to mislynch Min because we don’t know their play style; easy to mislynch Appel because Gorta knows her play style (and so does Cloned, but Cloned seemed to lean a bit more toward lynching Gorta instead from what I understood).

@clonedcheese

do we agree that there’s exactly 1 scum between these two

Is there a world where they’re both town?

And then Cloned told us before EoD that if Appel flipped town, we should lynch Gorta because we were almost guaranteed a wolf between the two of them.

@an_gorta_pratai

@Appelsiini

Here’s a question. Why can’t it be someone else wanting to frame you?

I don’t think the others are skilled enough to pull something like this. That’s why you are my number 1 suspect. I also don’t think you have been honest regarding my slot.

@Appelsiini

I was openly pushing you and had you at the bottom, while Min had you above the PRs and did not push you, which would make them a less obvious kill.

I have obviously been pushing you, so if I’m a wolf, my plan is to miscuddle you. Why would I, as a wolf, kill Min? Someone who would have you as their biggest scumread when the PRs are removed?

To make me look worse

@Appelsiini

Thank you, you just contradicted yourself.

You hold the players to such a low standard that you don’t think they will be able to do a slightly less obvious nightkill.

But you’re also saying you hold them to a high enough standard to figure out Min was killed in order to make you look worse – which didn’t happen, by the way. Cloned was the one to point out how the nightkill made you look worse.

This quote by Gorta is probably one of the weakest arguments I saw him make during D2.

@WindwardAway

@an_gorta_pratai

I’ll get there, but my gut is rarely wrong

I’m actually not sure if that’s a valid statement or not, considering you claimed to get mislynched for tunneling a townie previously.

@an_gorta_pratai

I usually have good reads, just I am not the best at social plays.

This was the other kind of weak, possibly baseless statement I saw. Basically, “I made a dumb play; it’s not me.”

@an_gorta_pratai

I realize that my case is kind of spammy and lacking “evidence”, but I have experience with Appel and know what she can do. I also rely on gut reads quite a bit and that gives the impression of someone making baseless accusations. This case will be a project though, as I have to look over several games to prove my point. The basis of my read is what I said, but I need to put facts behind it.

@Appelsiini

You know, maybe that’s a sign. I wish you luck with your project, but it all boils down to “this is in Appel’s wolfrange” and nothing more.

YBW’s behavior is making me confident they’re not W/W with Gorta, so I might actually be wrong here unless the scumteam is exactly Gorta and Arctic/Kiro. I might be willing to re-evaluate and read over.

Whoops maybe Appel did have it figured out.

@Appelsiini

Gorta was still showing TMI on Cloned this whole time, because even though Cloned visited Wind, he could have just told their teammate who to kill.

This is an interesting point.

@an_gorta_pratai

How in the hell could wolf!cloned made that kill himself? I mean in hindsight it is possible his partner did it, but if you read my ISO at one point I thought the kill was separate of the player.

@Appelsiini

@an_gorta_pratai

In the world of Cloned being scum PR the other scum could carry out the kill and cloned visits wind to verify his role and do the thing, but I don’t know why Cloned wouldn’t push Wind in this scenario.

This was some time after I made my wallpost. Interesting. Did you forget your own thought process, too?

@an_gorta_pratai

Aka if Cloned marches in with a red check as scum why not push it? You could only argue that point if Wind/Cheese are both w/w.

@an_gorta_pratai

Like if one is scum and Cloned had the other scum do the kill then why not push Wind?

@an_gorta_pratai

The result is either that they are both town or both scum. They can’t be t/w here due to social interactions

@Appelsiini

I don’t think you understand, Gorta. The point here is that your entire basis for scumreading me with such confidence is that I’m the only one who would’ve made that nightkill, yet you keep conveniently forgetting some simple things like that.

This is just me wanting to hear about your thought process, but why can’t those two be W/W again?

@Appelsiini

Those would be “considering possibilities other than the one you’re pushing.” Before you start arguing, the point wasn’t that there might be an explanation for it because you yourself said you forgot – which is essentially admitting that you hadn’t given much thought to it.

@an_gorta_pratai

I never said they can’t be w/w. If you read my posts I say they have to be w/w together or they are both town.

Then I pointed out somewhere below this that Gorta said:

@an_gorta_pratai

I don’t quite think that y’all are both scum. Appel said that I wasn’t considering a world in which y’all could be scum together (and that it was reason for me having TMI?), but I don’t quite see it. The way I see it is that it’s likely Appel and Kiro.

Which contradicted “they are both town or both scum. They can’t be t/w here due to social interactions” …

… which at this point we know is TMI, isn’t it?

@an_gorta_pratai

If y’all were t/w from a Cloned scum perspective he would have pushed you or night killed you. You would have killed cloned/ tried to make it look like Cloned was scum.

This was also a kind of liberal assumption in my opinion. I don’t think Cloned would have gone for such an obvious nightkill especially when I was sus enough as a PR claim that wolf!Cloned could have easily framed me. If I were a wolf, for that matter, I wouldn’t make my kill so blatantly obvious, either. The scum were smart to not kill either of us, but it ended up costing them a bus on N2 for not getting one of us out earlier. Kiro tried to get Cloned out, but had no chance of that because I pitched my plan (which I claimed was almost foolproof, and we did get hella information from it) and Appel/Gorta were battling for survival the whole day.

@clonedcheese

They’re saying “well they’re the same alignment, and I think both town is much more likely”

Which is weird in my eyes because they aren’t considering W!Windward

@clonedcheese

he’s not considering the case where I’m town and you’re scum

like

ever

Again, this is because, as Cloned pointed out, most people were townreading me but not everyone was townreading Cloned (and now Cloned has flipped town, so there). People are still townreading me, despite Kiro making a last-ditch effort at framing me. You’re welcome to say if you believe him, but I will immediately read you as a wolf if you do lol.

@WindwardAway

@Arctic

the only reason i am not concerned by you following gorta here is the fact that i almost certainly know you and gorta aren’t both mafia from your push on him d1

This, and Gorta and Worse both hopped very fast on the Silviu vote, and it would be pretty dumb if both of them as scum made the exact same move tbh.

Cloned said that out of Gorta/Worse/me, one of us was very likely scum because of how fast the vote hopped to Silviu specifically. Worse said that he’s just very unconfident in his reads, and Gorta said he hopped because he trusted Cloned as a player over his own read on Silviu.

Combining that with the D2 thunderdome between Appel/Gorta, evidence would actually point to Gorta being the second wolf with Kiro.

We basically narrowed it down to Appel/Gorta paired with Kiro/Cloned/me, and we know now that Appel was town and Cloned was town. We also know that Kiro didn’t do as he was told and was not on Cloned (probably because fakeclaiming doctor and claiming to be on me when he made a kill gave him a better chance of survival based on his hard townread on me than it would have if he’d killed Cloned directly and claimed to be on Cloned, but mysteriously did not heal Cloned).

@Appelsiini

From looking at ISOs, I have concluded that Gorta can only be a wolf if their teammate is Arctic unless there is distancing going on – in that case, it could still be Kiro or YBW, but I heavily doubt it.

But truth to be told: Gorta has shown such narrow thought process, making a mistake after mistake, not thinking about things which can also be an indication of confbias – but I feel like I shouldn’t be giving them countless, countless of excuses in order to say “okay, maybe they’re not a wolf.” But sometimes life doesn’t work like that, so I would still like to consider it.

I think what Appel said here is actually true - there’s been distancing between Gorta and Kiro. As I pointed out earlier, neither of you two have really townread each other, but you haven’t pushed on each other, either. Kiro chose to push on Cloned while Gorta targeted Appel. Arctic has been pretty thorough in his reads and I really don’t think he’s scum, and Worse has kind of flipflopped all over the place but he scumread both Gorta and Kiro the entire game which is actually something I did not do until Kiro outed as PR + Appel/Gorta thunderdome.

@WindwardAway

If Worse is a wolf, I don’t think Gorta is his teammate, but I’d have to do some more digging. Worse could be w/w with Appel, but I don’t think he can be w/w with Kiro.

This is also a thing I said.

Then there’s my detailed wallpost on every possible pairing and how likely I think they are. Specifically:

@WindwardAway

Because Appel flipped town, Gorta is a pretty solid scumread at the moment. If he flips scum then we’re guaranteed one of the PRs is a mafia PR, and by Cloned’s logic in stating that we should lynch Gorta D3 if Appel flips town, Kiro has to be the scum PR because Cloned bussing his teammate when they’re close to achieving parity would, in fact, potentially lose them the game. All the scum need is a single, stray townie vote on another townie and they hammer to end the game, so if Gorta is scum then Kiro is scum. I know I said earlier that probably only one of Gorta/Kiro/Worse is scum, but I rescind that statement and take Kiro out of it because it only adds up properly if we consider this pair.

So I think I’ve recapped everything. I hope this isn’t considered tunnelling Gorta, but I literally cannot consider Arctic as scum or it’s GG and I’ve dismissed Arctic way too easily, and there’s such a low chance of Kiro/Worse because of Worse’s readlist (and also because setup but shhh). For me, it’s down to Gorta/Kiro at this point, and I know Arctic and Worse reached the same conclusion. Kiro isn’t telling us his full readlist so it’s just Gorta who needs to give his.

[WindwardAway]

Holy shit I shouldve collapsed some sections so that wasn’t so freaking long because of all the quotes. Whoops~

[WindwardAway]

I think I’ve quoted pretty much everyone who had a say in D2 except for Worse, and mainly because he was a bit quiet and followed other people’s votes but still gave his readlist which I think is likely correct. I already gave my read on him, too, and I think at this point I’d kind of like to townclear him after scumreading him for the entire game.

Literally the only way I think I could be wrong now is if Arctic/Kiro is the scum team.

[an_gorta_pratai]

@WindwardAway

neither of you two have really townread each other

I did townread Kiro d1 and after their claim I spoke out. I didn’t push Kiro as hard as I could because it was between me and Appel.

@WindwardAway

So I think I’ve recapped everything. I hope this isn’t considered tunnelling Gorta, but I literally cannot consider Arctic as scum or it’s GG and I’ve dismissed Arctic way too easily, and there’s such a low chance of Kiro/Worse because of Worse’s readlist (and also because setup but shhh ). For me, it’s down to Gorta/Kiro at this point, and I know Arctic and Worse reached the same conclusion. Kiro isn’t telling us his full readlist so it’s just Gorta who needs to give his.

You are misclearing someone, I suggest you re-eval things big time. I’ll probably make my readlist tomorrow (or tonight if I can get to it)

[an_gorta_pratai]

It’s very reasonable to believe that Kiro is in anti-spew mode at this point, but anything before today should be useable as reliable interactions.

[WindwardAway]

@an_gorta_pratai

You are misclearing someone

Please elaborate.

@WindwardAway

it’s down to Gorta/Kiro at this point, and I know Arctic and Worse reached the same conclusion.

The thing is, from my POV as a town PR, only one of Arctic/Worse could possibly be scum, and yet they agree not only with each other but with me as well.

[an_gorta_pratai]

I think you are misclearing Arctic

[an_gorta_pratai]

@WindwardAway

The thing is, from my POV as a town PR, only one of Arctic/Worse could possibly be scum, and yet they agree not only with each other but with me as well.

I have cleared people for agreeing with me. I was the poster child for keeping the aliens alive in airlock because the last alien townread me. I later became an alien, but still