I am talk a break
I want you to ISO me and make your own case as to why you think I am scum. I don’t you scum reading me, but I want you to look at things for yourself. Not blindly listen to whatever I say or whatever Arctic says. Make your own read on me and we will talk about it.
I want you to first tell me how I am projecting things and also reads do change. If you look at my d1 readlist you will see that I found most people to be town, which can’t be possible. This means I had to re-evaluate everyone and when that happened my reads changed. I want you (and wind) to re-evaluate me from a neutral point of view. Get your head out of the confirmation bias
It’s interesting to say that because you would know if there was a framer or not if you were wolf with Kiro. You can cover all possibilities without calling to lynch both PRs.
You also called to lynch them
So, you were willing to lynch two PR claims over a single investigative pr claim?
Then why did you flip flop so much?
It’s because you originally said there is a high chance I can’t be scum, that I can’t be w/w with Kiro, and then you come in go after Worse and then you do a 180 and accuse me of being partners with Kiro.
You thought I would go for YBW because I was slightly sussing him earlier in the game.
which one?
Apparently not
I can link you some of my previous games and show you that my style of casing someone is NAI and I explained why my reads are different now in this very post
Honestly, kudos to Gorta for going the extra mile to ISO Arctic and dissect everything he could possibly consider suspicious to try to change our minds.
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/vote Kiro
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Vote Count
| Vote Target | Voted by | Votes |
|---|---|---|
| Kiro | YouButWorse, Kiro | 2/3 |
| Not voting | an_gorta_pratai, ArcticXI, WindwardAway | 3 |
Votes are locked and can’t be moved
Fine, here we go.
I didn’t read Gorta as town- or scumlean at the start of the game. He was kind of a nullread for me and stayed in the middle of my readlist until the very end of D1 when he, Worse and I all jumped off of Cloned and onto Silviu. Gorta said he was going to trust Cloned over his own read on Silviu, and Worse jumped because he was unsure of what to believe. I also jumped because I was unsure of what to believe, but I also genuinely thought that Silviu was scum (which I learned I was completely wrong about; he just gets very defensive when pressured, so I’ll keep that in mind).
Cloned scumread all three of us for jumping so fast, and I scumread Worse more than Gorta for it because Worse hadn’t said very much and seemed very uncertain of his own reads. Gorta pushed Appel on D2, and Appel retaliated, so I took a step back to watch their interactions. Both of them got very flustered by pushing each other, but up until that point, I hadn’t seen Appel say anything that didn’t seem neutral/objective. She had been a nullread for me with a slight townread, but when Gorta pointed out that she could be a sneaky wolf, I began to doubt her. Gorta displayed a frustrated reaction before Appel did (the one in caps lock) and to me, he looked like a deer caught in headlights. But he continued to push Appel more, and insisted she was shadier than he was (he didn’t outright say “Appel is scum” but said “Appel is within her wolfrange” iirc), and then Appel caved under pressure and snapped at him, voted, then withdrew her vote, which looked even more like a wolf move to me. I was willing to believe Gorta at that point, although neither of them were really looking like a townread to me just based on that interaction. However, I wasn’t entirely convinced they’d be town/wolf, either, even if the lynch flipped town. Gorta made a convincing enough case against Appel saying that she was capable of controlling the thread, and if we didn’t vote her out early it would be even harder to catch the scumteam later. What I should have considered is how capable Gorta is of controlling the thread, too, once Appel flipped town.
Cloned mentioned that he was pretty sure that one of Appel/Gorta had to be a wolf. I still wasn’t totally sure, so I hesitated in my analysis during the night and went through every possible remaining combination of scumteams still in the game (including with Cloned) for 3 hours and essentially did a megaread on everyone. By the start of D3, Cloned had been killed, so I deleted his parts in my analysis, which got rid of at least one of my top scumteam possibilities (the Cloned/Worse team). From what I’d inferenced so far, Worse was most likely only scum if Cloned was scum, but Gorta was most likely scum if Kiro was scum. I wrote out all possible teams regardless because I wanted to get rid of any confirmation bias and consider that anything was possible.
I reached the conclusion that Worse was likely just an unconfident newbie who sheeped through most of the game but had, in fact, formed his own reads and opinions that he simply kept to himself until someone else wrote similar views (in roughly the same way that I didn’t say I scumread Silviu until Appel BS’ed her read on him). Because I made that mistake on Silviu, I can understand how Worse could also make that mistake. By the end of D2, when Worse was pressured by the rest of us to make his own decision without waiting for someone else to confirm his suspicions, he gave a read and mislynched Appel with us. But on D3, Worse gave an updated read on the remaining possible scum, showing he’d really had the time to develop his reads to openly weigh in. From this behavior, combined with what I thought was just a very unlikely scumteam due to setup reasons, I cleared Worse from my long-term scumread.
Gorta was still roughly in the middle of my readlist, and the concerning thing was that moving Worse up on my list meant moving Gorta down. I had Arctic at the top of the town list, with Worse next, and Kiro at the very bottom as confirmed scum. That put Gorta directly above Kiro. The reason I haven’t been able to clear Gorta from my scumlist is because he did pretty much what I thought a decent wolf could do - maintain a position in the middle of my readlist without moving drastically up or down throughout the course of this game. The Appel flip really hit Gorta hard, if the Silviu flip hadn’t already, and yet I was still willing to keep Gorta in the null range until Cloned flipped. With Gorta, a lot of his behaviors could be dismissed as “bad town” because of his previous game history, so it’s the “easy way out” for him. He didn’t try to hide his mislynches or pushes; he simply made what could be seen as fairly reasonable excuses for them - all while distancing from Kiro by simply not saying much about him and not voting with him at all. He didn’t comment much on Kiro’s pushes but instead let Kiro continue pretending to be a pushy newbie townie while he pushed a different agenda to distract from what both of them were actually doing. I didn’t see this right away because they actually distanced very well.
If I try to see that as a non-wolf behavior, I would have to assume they’re both town who just haven’t coordinated their viewpoints at all and haven’t really interacted with each other, either, while most of us had at least several interactions with Kiro where we asked him what he was doing, what he was thinking, what his readlist looked like, or why he was pushing Cloned so hard. If I assume Kiro is wolf and Gorta is town, I still see Gorta not commenting much on Kiro, which is actually kind of weird at this point in the game. The rest of us had at the very least commented on Kiro’s innocent act and whether or not we thought he was faking it. Arctic and Worse thought it seemed genuine; I hard townread Kiro all the way up to the point where he outed as protective, and only then did he move down the list (but still not into my scum range). Gorta didn’t say much about Kiro’s act, and he also hasn’t gone back to analyze Kiro’s actions to further confirm Kiro as a wolf. I’m not saying that Gorta should have ISO’d Kiro necessarily, but he seemed to be perfectly fine with agreeing Kiro was a wolf without commenting at all on Kiro’s behaviors thus far - while Arctic, Worse and I all mentioned Kiro’s innocent act that he kept up until he suddenly let Cloned die.
There’s just so much distancing between Gorta and Kiro right now that it’s ridiculous, if you understand what I’m saying. Gorta has focused the entirety of D3 on figuring out who the scum is between Arctic/Worse (after being lazy) instead of writing anything at all on Kiro besides this:
That was the only quote I found from Gorta’s ISO on D3 about Kiro. He accepted Kiro was a wolf and didn’t have any further comment; and this quote was specifically in response to Worse’s scumread on him and Kiro.
And if I go back to Gorta’s ISO on D2, I only find - again - a single mention of thinking Kiro is scum:
And this was because Gorta was, interestingly enough, more focused on Cloned and me than on Kiro. There was absolutely no point in time where Gorta said “Kiro is likely a wolf as the second protective claim with Cloned and Wind confirming each other as PRs”. He hard pushed Appel and was like “oh yeah, Kiro is a wolf too but we’ll ignore him for now”.
If anyone feels like checking Gorta’s ISO to see that I really did pull the only two quotes regarding Kiro, go ahead - it’s just way too suspicious that Gorta mentioned Kiro being a wolf once on D2 and once on D3. That’s both indicative of TMI and distancing because he gave no analysis of Kiro. No ISO, no mention of his behavior, nothing. And really, his lack of interaction or analysis-based read on Kiro tells me he has to be Kiro’s scum partner.
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I can’t tell if Gorta is going to hammer before I can write anything else, so I’ll just say this now:
Kiro, you did a good job of falsely leading us to townread you. It was a good play, at the risk of Cloned flipping town during the night. Your behavior as scum is more or less the same as your behavior as town, so I’ll keep that in mind for future reference.
Gorta, you did a good job misleading us as well. Ultimately, it’s the lack of not only interacting with but also discussing Kiro’s place on your readlist that gives you away. You made decently convincing pushes and covered for your mistakes by appealing to us as having made dumb choices.
Worse, you improved a lot from the beginning of the game by sharing your thoughts. I scumread you for a long time because you were keeping most of your thoughts private besides your readlist when asked, and because you were sheeping on the votes, but you’re one of the few (or maybe the only one) who had a correct readlist much earlier in the game. Your reasoning makes plenty of sense, so don’t be afraid to speak up next time.
Arctic, you had a really solid strategy by working from the bottom up and essentially considering all of us guilty until proven innocent. It gave you reasons to pick at people’s statements and actions to find reasons to read them as scum, and when you didn’t find indications of wolfiness, you moved them toward a townread. If you ever do that as wolf, we’d probably lose lol. You were vocal the whole game, so it was easy to follow your train of thought.
Cloned, thanks for giving your reads and your strategies. I was really starting to wonder if I should be suspecting you or Kiro more, or if both of you were possibly town, but it worked out in the end. Your alignment cop fakeclaim was a nice strategy that was likely meant to bait me, but ended up baiting Kiro instead, and I got inspired to bait Kiro with a fake tracking claim from that.
Appel, sorry for doubting you and believing Gorta’s push on you simply because he claimed you were within your wolfrange and because you finally snapped at him before getting mislynched. You also had what I thought was a very objective analysis on everyone, similar to what I thought Arctic was doing; I just didn’t know how to read it anymore after Gorta started hard pushing.
Min and Silviu, sorry you guys died so early and sorry for scumreading both of you (especially Silviu). D1 didn’t give me much information to work with, and at least now I have a slightly clearer idea of how you both play as town.
GG, I think I’ve said all the important stuff I wanted to say before getting sniped. xD Thanks for making my first FM game a lot of fun!
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It was so much fun playing with everybody here. From sheeping with everyone D1, and trying to understand what Kiro is trying to say, to actually understanding whats going on (kinda) and making my own reads! (i still dont know what kiros trying to say half the time but im figuring it out learning a second language is hard)
God I really hope Gorta is actually a wolf because if it was arctic playing us this entire time im gonna feel like such an asshole
The thing is Kiro has disappeared and said nothing after he was basically outed, so I didn’t focus too much on him. My main goal was trying to find a wolf between Arctic and Worse because that is the question that needs to be answered. You are one stubborn fellow who hasn’t gotten out of that tunnel yet when you are getting misled by Arctic. Blind trust is how we lose town games around here. “oh Alice is town, yup, she can’t possibly be a wolf” a few days later “mafia wins congrats Alice”, like it’s just bad town play
I am more scared of Appel as a wolf than Kiro as a wolf. I don’t think many new players would catch Appel as a wolf on their first game here. I legitimately thought she was a wolf and as such a threat. Kiro was getting tested anyway, so I didn’t bother much with Kiro. I was focused on a greater threat in my opinion. I was wrong on that read this time, but Appel as a wolf could sweep all of us in this game. I have witnessed stuff like that first hand and usually my reads get drowned out, which is why I was so vocal about this one. Like I get that you scum read me, but don’t you realize what Arctic is doing? He is playing us all, which is why he saved me for last. I have strong reads usually, but crappy social skills and that affects my town image. I am usually quiet, make the occasional mistake, am not always active and that gets me PoE’d and scumread. Deus Ex Gorta is a rare thing. I need you to listen to me Damnit. You don’t know how many town games I have lost on this site and I don’t want to lose another because you and Worse are pocketed by a damn deepwolf. That’s all I have to say
Y’all can hammer if y’all want, but I am not going to waste these 19 hours to prove that y’all are getting scammed by Arctic
Kiro is likely in anti-spew/ gone because he knows he’s caught and wants to cut discussion short when y’all are likely going to trust Arctic, which will win them the game.
I trust you based on how you handled d2 socially and avoided a very explosive situation that most new players would have just lost it with
We don’t quickhammer 15 minutes into d4 as well. The last time that happened town voted out the other town and guess what, scum won. We don’t want to do that here as well. Like I am so sorry that I can’t be as towny as most others, but I am not a damn wolf here and we are going to lose another town game.