SFoL 64: Duel of the Juggernauts discussion and balance thread

[Vulgard]

also
i think we have a d1 lynch and day 2 election
i think that introduces fun dynamics
such as trying to elect based on the day 1 lynch

[Vulgard]

the justification for d1 lynch is that it works better when it comes to how many lynches/mislynches are needed for either faction’s win
i did calculationsTM previously in the thread so you can check that out if you want
idk why i’m still talking

[TheBlueElixir]

so this is the syndicate ive heard about

@N.1

If the Elder ever becomes the only Syndicate member left alive, they automatically join the factional chat.

so if Elder is the last he joins the chat

alone

why

[Chloe]

You can read what everyone before you said

Probably get all their past results as well, if I understand correctly

[TheBlueElixir]

The confessor might have some important info so thats a thing

im trying to find things that shouldnt work but I’m not seeing em

@N.1

All members of the Worshipper neighborhood will be immune to the Syndicate ’s day actions today. (2 uses)

so dies this include

@N.1

Faith and Steel (Day) - Kill yourself and target player in broad daylight. Nothing will be able to stop this. (1 use)

it says nothing can stop it though.

@N.1

Omniscience (Day) - Choose another member of the Syndicate . At the beginning of the night, you will learn if any other day abilities were used on them and who used them, but not what they were. (3 uses)

if a worshipper is a syndicate,. would it stop other syndicate abils?

[TheBlueElixir]

@N.1

Divine Retribution (Night) - Only available on even nights. Attack a player who voted you at any point during the previous day. You do not receive bonuses from In Nomine Dei while using this ability.

what if the Templar is redirected, by, lets say, a warrior

@N.1

In Nomine Dei (Passive) - If you perform the factional kill, you will always bypass night immunity and protective effects. You may also use both Purge the Sinners and Faith and Steel on the same day.

what about themorgy or whatever the class with the Sigil of Fire is? the fire sigil isnt protective but would it kill the templar?

[TheBlueElixir]

@N.1

Faction Links (Night) - Check if two players have the same alignment. If they do, you will receive a match. If they do not, you will receive no match. Does not bypass framing, godfathers or tailoring. (1 use)

@N.1

Omen of Remorse (Passive) - Whenever a player visits you, they become permanently framed

is a socialite links someone who visits the harbringer that night, what happens?

does framing do anything as far as visits go?

@N.1

Circle of War (Day) - Prevent another player from visiting and being visited tonight. (2 uses)

@N.1

Dominance of Pestilence (Day) - All players who attempt to occupy or kill you tonight will start bleeding and their visit will be prevented. The bleeding will kill them in two nights if they are not healed. If the Arbiter attempts to investigate you, they will also be prevented and bled. (2 uses)

@N.1

Omniscience (Day) - Choose another member of the Syndicate . At the beginning of the night, you will learn if any other day abilities were used on them and who used them, but not what they were. (3 uses)

@N.1

Overrule (Day) - Choose a player and another player. If your first target uses a day ability today, they will be redirected to your second target. (2 uses)

can the second/third one be red. by the fourth?

@N.1

Banner of Death (Night) - Mark a player for death. All attacks that target a marked player are guaranteed to succeed. (1 use)

the syndicate do this alot

@N.1

Zornhau (Night) - Make yourself occupation and redirection immune, then attack a player, bypassing healing and night immunity. (0 uses)

there is no way to gain a use of Zornhau in the Duelist classcard. Is it only a thing if a Patron is?

@N.1

Pearly Gates (Night) - Choose a dead Syndicate member whose identity was not hidden by Rapture and bring them back to life until the end of the next day. It will be publicly announced that the Syndicate revived [player] for one final day. They will not be able to vote, and they will not count toward parity, but they will be able to post a total of 50 times and they will be able to use their day abilities as normal. They will also count as alive for the purpose of the Syndicate ’s abilities, such as the Confessor ’s Eyes of the Syndicate . (1 use)

so this is specific uses. I guess if you want another bleed or something to be a thing

@N.1

Righteous Wrath (Day) - Kill a player in broad daylight. If you are not in the Syndicate factional chat, you gain a use of this ability whenever you discover a member of the Syndicate with Gaze of the Seer . - 0 uses.

so I assume this doesnt reveal the elder so let me ask - this just kills someone midday?
just like that?

dayvigs…

@N.1

Grand Archbishop (Passive) - As long as you are alive, all dead Syndicate members can still speak in the Syndicate chat. You may use both Mental Restructuring and Rapture during the same day. Additionally, if you perform the factional kill , your vote will secretly count as two during the following day if there are eleven or more players alive.

Does this include Elder, if Elder is dead?

@N.1

Mental Restructuring (Day) - Link the minds of two players other than yourself. Tonight, they will be able to talk to each other until the end of the night. At the end of the night, they will be removed from their chat and you will be added to it.

besides faking a mystic claim, what is the point of that? Feels like its HoB sided.

@N.1

Scales of the Syndicate (Night) - Choose two players other than yourself. Tomorrow, one fewer vote will be required to lynch the first player and one more vote will be required to lynch the second player. Both effects are silent.

so if the syndicate make it to a 9 v 4, maj is 7, they only have to convince 2 town. If town wanted to lynch a specific syndicate, it would take literally 8/9 of the town.

@N.1

Gaze of the Seer (Night) - Learn if a player is a member of the Syndicate , bypassing framing and tailoring effects. If they are, they will be informed that the Elder successfully investigated them last night.

If that syndicate dies that night do all syndicate know of the investigation(Archon dead) and does the Elder still get a righteous Wrath charge?

Can King’s bounty extend the day if the bountied target died by pluarity?

Can Arbiter/Prophetic king self heal?

[Vulgard]

do you actually want me to answer all these questions rn?

[Vulgard]

yes i do have answers for all of them

[Chloe]

@TheBlueElixir

there is no way to gain a use of Zornhau in the Duelist classcard

There is

@N.1

Versetzen (Day) - You will be night immune tonight. If you block an attack this way, you will gain a use of Zornhau . (2 uses)

this is all im answering cuz it aint my setup

[TheBlueElixir]

@N.1

The Fool - If a member of the Hand of Byzantium is lynched tomorrow, the day will be extended by 24 hours and there will be an additional lynch. However, during the following night, each member of the Syndicate will have to choose what class they want to appear as, and they will appear to investigators as that class on that night. The Arbiter bypasses this mechanic.

Does this stack with King’s bounty

X is bountied, and The Fool is taking effect

X Is a member of HoB

X is lynched

is there now only 1 more lynch? Or if a bountied Syndicate dies and the next lynch is on a HoB, can there be 3 lynches?

@N.1

The High Priestess - At the start of the coming day, all targets of the Arbiter and Priestess ’s actions during the night will be revealed in the thread, but not which players were targeted by which role and/or ability.

does this actually help the Syndicate? It means that 1 of 2 announced players is mech confirmed

@N.1

The Emperor - Tomorrow, the King’s vote will count as three. However, they will start bleeding sometime in the middle of the day. If the King is the Divine King , the bleeding will be fake, and the King will be informed that the bleeding is fake.

Does the king know about this? Does it appear in VCs?

@N.1

The Hierophant - On the next night, all players will be automatically redirected to their targets from the previous night.

Does this affect syndicate? If so, what if they visited a dead target?

@Vulgard

do you actually want me to answer all these questions rn?

I have way too many questions that dont actually matter you dont have to answer them I’m just working out theoreticals and things I dont understand

[TheBlueElixir]

oh, missed that, thanks

[Vulgard]

i promise i’ll be able to answer all of these questions in-game, depending on what’s relevant
idk if there’s a point in me answering all of them now

[TheBlueElixir]

there isnt

but im going to ask anyway

[TheBlueElixir]

@N.1

• Death - At the start of the coming day, the current King will revert to their original class and another player will randomly be chosen to be the new King. The new King can be a member of any faction.

what about starting king

@N.1

If the King mentions knowing about this in the thread or a neighborhood chat, and the Syndicate points it out in their factional chat while highlighting the specific post, the King will die immediately and their chosen target will live.

do elections happen that day then

and if the king quotes the Tower text can that get him killed, or how much he likes towers(like softing it)

@N.1

Judgment - All dead players will be able to speak in the thread tomorrow, and it will be announced at the start of the day. However, all dead members of the Syndicate will be able to use their night actions during the following night. Typical limits apply – for example, if a member of the Syndicate died with no uses of their limited night ability, they will not be able to use that ability.

this is the single best thing in the game

it would be absolute chaos but very fun

[TheBlueElixir]

and thats every question I could think of

I’ll probably ask any of the relevant ones again once this becomes an actual thing

[Vulgard]

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

All members of the Worshipper neighborhood will be immune to the Syndicate ’s day actions today. (2 uses)

so dies this include

@N.1

Faith and Steel (Day) - Kill yourself and target player in broad daylight. Nothing will be able to stop this. (1 use)

it says nothing can stop it though.

Faith and Steel is going to work.

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

Omniscience (Day) - Choose another member of the Syndicate . At the beginning of the night, you will learn if any other day abilities were used on them and who used them, but not what they were. (3 uses)

if a worshipper is a syndicate,. would it stop other syndicate abils?

Omniscience is going to fail on a Syndicate member who’s in the Worshipper neighborhood, assuming that the Priestess chooses to use her day ability which protects the members. This is completely intentional. After all, the Priestess’s ability is supposed to be pro-town. Preventing Syndicate members from targeting their Worshipper, even though they managed to infiltrate the neighborhood, is part of the ability.

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

Divine Retribution (Night) - Only available on even nights. Attack a player who voted you at any point during the previous day. You do not receive bonuses from In Nomine Dei while using this ability.

what if the Templar is redirected, by, lets say, a warrior

Then the redirection works normally. Only your initial target has to fit the requirements. It’s not considered “your fault” if you get redirected, so you still attack the player you were redirected towards.

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

In Nomine Dei (Passive) - If you perform the factional kill, you will always bypass night immunity and protective effects. You may also use both Purge the Sinners and Faith and Steel on the same day.

what about themorgy or whatever the class with the Sigil of Fire is? the fire sigil isnt protective but would it kill the templar?

It’s not a protective effect. The Templar will die. Same thing with attacking Warrior, who can counterattack. Their target will also probably die, though.

@TheBlueElixir

is a socialite links someone who visits the harbringer that night, what happens?

does framing do anything as far as visits go?

They are framed before the check. Framing is kinda weak if you can’t frame someone on the same night they are checked. So in that case, Socialite would see the player who visited the Harbinger as “incompatible” with the other player she checked, assuming the other player she checked was indeed HoB and not framed.

@N.1

Dominance of Pestilence (Day) - All players who attempt to occupy or kill you tonight will start bleeding and their visit will be prevented. The bleeding will kill them in two nights if they are not healed. If the Arbiter attempts to investigate you, they will also be prevented and bled. (2 uses)

This one can’t be redirected by Overrule, because you’re the only valid target. I’m not sure how action resolution works here. Maybe they get occupied. If you were to ask me, and me alone, I would say that nothing happens, because you can’t redirect something that only works on you in the first place.

@N.1

Omniscience (Day) - Choose another member of the Syndicate . At the beginning of the night, you will learn if any other day abilities were used on them and who used them, but not what they were. (3 uses)

This one can be. Same principle as with Templar’s attack. The initial target is supposed to be legal, but it’s not “your fault” that you were redirected, so it can still work on the player you were redirected to.
(I feel like ToL action resolution handles this differently, but ToL is ToL and Vulgard is Vulgard.)

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

Banner of Death (Night) - Mark a player for death. All attacks that target a marked player are guaranteed to succeed. (1 use)

the syndicate do this alot

Yeah, they do. Their thing is that they are powerful. They do have lots of strong KP, but you can still stop most of it. (And a notable portion of their KP is tied to a single role.) Might remove some of their KP-related stuff if it ends up being too much.

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

Zornhau (Night) - Make yourself occupation and redirection immune, then attack a player, bypassing healing and night immunity. (0 uses)

there is no way to gain a use of Zornhau in the Duelist classcard. Is it only a thing if a Patron is?

There is. You have to stop an attack. Somebody had said this before I did.

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

Pearly Gates (Night) - Choose a dead Syndicate member whose identity was not hidden by Rapture and bring them back to life until the end of the next day. It will be publicly announced that the Syndicate revived [player] for one final day. They will not be able to vote, and they will not count toward parity, but they will be able to post a total of 50 times and they will be able to use their day abilities as normal. They will also count as alive for the purpose of the Syndicate ’s abilities, such as the Confessor ’s Eyes of the Syndicate . (1 use)

so this is specific uses. I guess if you want another bleed or something to be a thing

Probably the most strategic ability in there.

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

Righteous Wrath (Day) - Kill a player in broad daylight. If you are not in the Syndicate factional chat, you gain a use of this ability whenever you discover a member of the Syndicate with Gaze of the Seer . - 0 uses.

so I assume this doesnt reveal the elder so let me ask - this just kills someone midday?
just like that?

dayvigs…

Yeah, pretty much. And it’s silent, meaning that you don’t need to reveal yourself to use this. The shot is anonymous.
It’s highly conditional (you have to find scum to use it), so I feel like that makes it more balanced.

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

Grand Archbishop (Passive) - As long as you are alive, all dead Syndicate members can still speak in the Syndicate chat. You may use both Mental Restructuring and Rapture during the same day. Additionally, if you perform the factional kill , your vote will secretly count as two during the following day if there are eleven or more players alive.

Does this include Elder, if Elder is dead?

Interesting question. I think it doesn’t include Elder if they never gained access to the chat while alive, but it does include them if they did join the chat.
A lost wolf is lost for a reason.

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

Mental Restructuring (Day) - Link the minds of two players other than yourself. Tonight, they will be able to talk to each other until the end of the night. At the end of the night, they will be removed from their chat and you will be added to it.

besides faking a mystic claim, what is the point of that? Feels like its HoB sided.

You can potentially get claims, depending on how much people trust this. Again, strategic uses. It is HoB sided.

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

Scales of the Syndicate (Night) - Choose two players other than yourself. Tomorrow, one fewer vote will be required to lynch the first player and one more vote will be required to lynch the second player. Both effects are silent.

so if the syndicate make it to a 9 v 4, maj is 7, they only have to convince 2 town. If town wanted to lynch a specific syndicate, it would take literally 8/9 of the town.

Yes. But the ability is much weaker earlygame, which is one thing, and you need to correctly predict who will be the prime lynch target ahead of time, which is another thing.

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

Gaze of the Seer (Night) - Learn if a player is a member of the Syndicate , bypassing framing and tailoring effects. If they are, they will be informed that the Elder successfully investigated them last night.

If that syndicate dies that night do all syndicate know of the investigation(Archon dead) and does the Elder still get a righteous Wrath charge?

Only the player who was actually visited receives the notification, no matter what. Elder is still going to get a charge if their visit succeeded.

@TheBlueElixir

Can King’s bounty extend the day if the bountied target died by pluarity?

No. You have to maj the target.

@TheBlueElixir

Can Arbiter/Prophetic king self heal?

No.

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

The Fool - If a member of the Hand of Byzantium is lynched tomorrow, the day will be extended by 24 hours and there will be an additional lynch. However, during the following night, each member of the Syndicate will have to choose what class they want to appear as, and they will appear to investigators as that class on that night. The Arbiter bypasses this mechanic.

Does this stack with King’s bounty

X is bountied, and The Fool is taking effect

X Is a member of HoB

X is lynched

is there now only 1 more lynch? Or if a bountied Syndicate dies and the next lynch is on a HoB, can there be 3 lynches?

Yes, these can stack. Could make for a fascinating day phase.

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

The High Priestess - At the start of the coming day, all targets of the Arbiter and Priestess ’s actions during the night will be revealed in the thread, but not which players were targeted by which role and/or ability.

does this actually help the Syndicate? It means that 1 of 2 announced players is mech confirmed

Not really. Just because the HoB PRs targeted someone doesn’t mean they are mech confirmed. Only the Arbiter’s check target would be, and not always.

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

The Emperor - Tomorrow, the King’s vote will count as three. However, they will start bleeding sometime in the middle of the day. If the King is the Divine King , the bleeding will be fake, and the King will be informed that the bleeding is fake.

Does the king know about this? Does it appear in VCs?

The King doesn’t know until EoD (the additional votes are silent).

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

The Hierophant - On the next night, all players will be automatically redirected to their targets from the previous night.

Does this affect syndicate? If so, what if they visited a dead target?

It does affect Syndicate. And yes, they will be redirected to dead people. If it doesn’t work according to the forum’s action resolution, and people hate me for resolving it that way, then they will just be occupied if they can’t be redirected.

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

• Death - At the start of the coming day, the current King will revert to their original class and another player will randomly be chosen to be the new King. The new King can be a member of any faction.

what about starting king

There is no starting King. There’s a day 2 election.

@TheBlueElixir

do elections happen that day then

Next day.

@TheBlueElixir

and if the king quotes the Tower text can that get him killed, or how much he likes towers(like softing it)

Depends on if the Syndicate notices it. That’s the “thing” with the Syndicate’s anticlaim thing. They have to notice things for it to take effect, and explain it too. If you have a galaxy brain soft the Syndicate won’t pick up on, then you will survive. The Syndicate’s active participation in screwing claimers over is important.

@TheBlueElixir

@N.1

Judgment - All dead players will be able to speak in the thread tomorrow, and it will be announced at the start of the day. However, all dead members of the Syndicate will be able to use their night actions during the following night. Typical limits apply – for example, if a member of the Syndicate died with no uses of their limited night ability, they will not be able to use that ability.

this is the single best thing in the game

it would be absolute chaos but very fun

Yes. I want to see this used as well. Especially in LyLo.

[Vulgard]

Felt like answering you just because.

[TheBlueElixir]

oh nice

and one last question

does judgement let the elder use abils that last night?

[Vulgard]

@TheBlueElixir

oh nice

I feel like everybody has this thought whenever I write a wallpost. An immediate, kneejerk reaction. “oh nice”

On a serious note, yes. Judgment will allow the Elder to use their abilities, just like any other Syndicate class.