Sorcerors needs a fix

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

Too many games unseen exe their own sorc at the end of the game because they fear he might be possessor. In this case, I found the mm by d3 and had made contact with him, tell him I was a pal. I proceeded to kill anyone investigating the mm for three nights. The inquisitor died early but that was suspect because possessor can easily fake it. And an assassin died to a dk, leading them to suspect I killed him. Surely they must have thought there was a very good chance I was actually sorceror, but why take the risk? After all, this was at the very end of the game (one BD left alive) and they had the numbers. They didn’t need me anymore and what if I was a possessor and ruined the game for them in a way the lone BD couldn’t? At that stage the game gives unseen zero incentive to keep a sorc alive. And it’s beyond frustrating to lose as sorc in a game that unseen have clearly already won.

The sorc is kind of odd in general in terms of being a “neutral” that really isn’t neutral at all-- that is very clearly on the side of the cult/unseen and even as king becomes cult/unseen king.

I’ve thought through some possible solutions but I think they’re all kind of a mess.

One would be reclass the Sorceror as cult/unseen or at least allow the sorc to win with the unseen and cult rather than lose as a neutral. But I can see how this might get confusing (i.e. the idea that all games have a nk) or imbalanced.

A second solution would be introducing some way of communicating that proves the role beyond any doubt. But I could see this being either a bit too trivial for a night ability (mastermind receiving a “wink” from the sorceror") or a bit too informative (being able to directly tell the mm who you are).

A third solution would be to let the sorceror sit at the table with the cult/unseen at night. Though I think that pushes things too far and beyond imbalancing the game would make it even more ridiculous for them be classified as neutral.

A fourth solution would be to give sorc a day ability (perhaps “hex”) usable during trial that would kill the highest ranking cult/unseen voting to exe them. But it’s easy to see this being misused.

There must be a better solution but I can’t think of it right now.

#2

Of all these solutions I like a hybrid your latter three options the most:

Day ability, Sorcerer’s Coven: Listen in on cult/unseen conversations tonight, The unseen/cult will receive a message at the start of the night: “The Sorcerer’s astral presence governs tonight”. (1 use)

This works similarly to the marshal’s original listen in, in that the sorcerer cannot send messages to the unseen, but the unseen’s messages will reach the sorcerer. Since that mechanic was removed, it is reusable again in other classes. This would make coordinating with evil easier for the sorcerer, but not the other way around per say. If they whisper during the day to further confirm, it can be caught and usually is for experienced players, especially a watchful inquisitor.

How I envision this is that it would fail upon being jailed just like psychic link, and the sorcerer can still use her regular abilities that night. If this is too strong/weak, simply change whether a message is given or not or alter the number of uses.

I personally think the main issue with the sorcerer is the interplay with the inquisitor though. The inquisitor is too ineffective at finding the sorcerer and the sorcerer is too ineffective at hiding from BD.

#3

Seems like unseen were idiots or trolls. Nothing can be done in that situation I guess.

#4

They weren’t idiots or trolls, though. The OP even says they don’t blame them - what they did was entirely rational from their perspective; OP could have been a possessor, and it could have cost them the game.

At the same time, though, I feel that claiming to be a Sorcerer as a Possessor ought to be a valid strategy, so I’m against adding anything that would make it too easy for a Sorcerer to prove what they are. I mean, it’d be easy to give the Sorcerer a way to prove - but we have to be fair to the Possessor as well as the Sorcerer, and I’m not sure siding with the Sorcerer here is the right move.

Possessors don’t exactly have it easy, either, and generally deception is part of the game, so all else being equal I’d side with “allow Possessors to lie to Unseen / Cult” over “make it easy for Sorcerers to prove themselves to Unseen / Cult.”

I should also point out that the Sorcerer is allowed to plan their strategy around forcing the Unseen to win with them - that is, you can act against the Unseen in ways that indirectly hurt them in order to put them in a position where they have no choice but to trust you. eg. if you hadn’t protected the MM at a key moment, you could have potentially put the Unseen in a position where they needed your vote in order to win and therefore couldn’t execute you.

Also, while the Sorcerer wins with the Unseen, the fact that there’s a potential for them to end up at odds is important, since we don’t want the NK’s role to be too swingy. Having a Sorcerer already boosts the Unseen - making it easier for the Sorcerer to reveal themselves to them would be going in the wrong direction.

#5

This is a fantastic summary of the problem with the Inq/Sorc situation. It’s improved since the Sorc buffs, but this is still imo the biggest weakness of the game right now.

I would LOVE to try this solution. Sorcerer really isn’t Neutral at all - she wins with Evils. So increasing her coordination with the Evils without actually joining them in private communication is a solution with a lot of potential. This would improve the danger factor of a Sorc, help to balance her presence with the Inq helping BD, and would give a Sorc game a different feel/pace than other NK games.

The Inq would need to coordinate with the BD actively to find the Sorc, but he does that already, so this could be an indirect but effective way to buff the Sorc and support her goal.

#6

I think they should change the magic dust ability to something like this:

Magic Dust: Select a player. He will appear as a magic user to the Inquisitor for the rest of the game. 3 uses.

It could still help the Sorcerer trick the Inquisitor without being as powerful as the current Magic Dust.

1 Like
#7

I was personally thinking Magic Dust should be changed to something like… 'Choose a player (Other than King) - You and that player exchange Investigative results tonight

#8

To balance the Day Ability “Sorceror’s Coven” why not make it so that Psychic and CW will know when Sorceror uses this ability, thus exposing to the BD that it’s a Sorceror game?

#9

Psychic, Court Wizard, AND Paladin, as they’re all BD Magic Classes

1 Like
#10

That’s an interesting possibility, but I think that will make the inquisitor too easy of a claim. Currently the possessor change made it so that BD still feels uneasy around inquisitor claims. With the change that you mentioned, it will be much easier to claim inquisitor safely at the start without possible backlash of BD as several members can confirm there is a sorcerer in the game. I think the presence of an inquisitor is enough of a tip to BD that it’s a sorcerers game.

The possible interaction with magic users is an interesting one though. If you’d still want to add this idea I would change it to, all BD magic users are occupied when Sorcerer’s Coven is used. Thematically it’d be consistent, would still be a slight hint that it’s likely a sorcerers game and I think the balance should skew more to buffing Sorcerer. To me, Sorcerer still feels underpowered compared to the other NK’s, but that’s just anecdotal experience.

1 Like
#11

I don’t think it would make the Inq more likely to claim early. So long as sorc is alive, inq is going to want to remain undercover. Especially since even when guarded sorc can safely attack them.

2 Likes
#12

You’re right. Changing “Sorceror’s Coven” to occupy all BD magic users makes more sense.

But then again, if a Sorc uses this after most BD magic users are gone, then it’s nearly impossible to coordinate the fact that it’s a Sorc game, whereas the Sorc gets a free message across to Cult/US that they’re allies.

Why not give the ability to detect Sorceror’s Coven to a select few BD classes? Maybe just the Psychic having it seems fair? Or just the CW?

#13

This is not what I tried to convey with that post. I’m not talking about the specific space of inq/sorcerer games, but the game as a whole. I have used inquisitor as a great fake claim as starting assassin/CL/cult member. You claim to king day 1 and you won’t be checked by king as you have already claimed to him. The whisper tends to show you as an early alch/inqui claim anyways, so investigatives will not be on you. If you happen to kill a magic user on your way and observer/princess finds out, you can simply claim you went for a kill and people think you are even more confirmed.

By the time you reach lategame you will be discovered as a fake claim in possessor/reaper games and will be executed so that MM can convert again, or you have already used your abilities as cult, so you are expendable anyways. In an actual sorcerer game you accuse the real inquisitor when he comes out that he was fake and you had claimed to king early, so they should execute him. With the current state of this ability, sorcerer would probably use it n1, or n2 to find MM+assassin or MM+assassin+convert in order to not waste any kills on them potentially. If you would add in your suggestion of notifying BD this fake claim would be a lot less effective. It is my opinion that Sorcerer needs scum’s help, but BD and the inquisitor should remain more separate factions and inqui should not be a confirmable claim.

#14

If the game has reached the point that most magic users are gone and BD still has not figured out that it’s a sorcerer game, that’s on BD. You’re going from a perspective that the current sorcerer is balanced perfectly. I personally feel it’s underpowered and could use this as a buff. That’s why I don’t think it needs a downside, but the buff can be scaled up or down, based on having the message or not, the number of uses, whether sorcerer can actually communicate with the unseen beyond just listening in or any number of creative ways.

If you would just give it to a single BD class, the psychic would be most suitable as a magic user, and the prime confirmer for a reaper/possessor game in the first place. Psychic would almost always be able to identify what NK would be in the game. Thematically I liked having it send to all BD magic users better though.

1 Like
#15

The only thing I can say is - You should have had the unseen attack you. Sorc is death immune at night. Possessor isnt.

#16

Or had them poison you

#17

The only thing I can say is - You should have had the unseen attack you. Sorc is death immune at night. Possessor isnt.

???

Blackened Shield makes the possessor immune to death at night.

#18

The OP is saying the Unseen didnt trust he was Sorc. The thought he may have been possessor. You can nip that in the butt by telling the Unseen (who he was whispering) to attack or poison you for proof you are sorc. Possessor isnt immune to poison. And I swear Ive seen a possessor die at night :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: But Im prob wrong on that.

#19

There are things that bypass night Immunity. Also the Possessor’s second Ability makes him appear to kill himself.

#20

Poss can die at night but only reliably by prince or hunter. And you could poison a poss but they could always just jump, which is going to endanger their victory. And why should they take even the slightest risk when they have zero incentive to keep you alive?