do you have the data to back this up, or are you just pulling this numbers from nowhere land?
- even if they did, that wouldn’t show how many games the evil king made a difference and survived
- No, you are just guessing. your predictions are worthless arguments
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Evil king doesn’t need to survive. He can just tell bd to exe 1 or 2 players, or just force exe a prince, or find a unseen and tell him all the information he got.
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I don’t have data but I’ve been playing enough games and watched enough stream to see that evil king wins 80-90% of games unless he get killed by a reaper early or he is stupid enough to bus the MM.
Also, the devs did mention that king’s fraction have a crazy effect on the winning fraction, that why they nerfed the king allies before people complained about it.
I made stupid estimates when I was new to the forums that turned out to be statistically wrong. Your guesses are meaningless.
Is that what my logic said?
Absolutely not; this is a completely awful suggestion. Alchemists are vital because they provide a neutral that the king has a reason to want to keep alive; taking away their ability to heal kings would make them even more execute-on-sight, and encouraging an execute-on-sight mentality defeats the entire purpose of having non-evil neutral roles like that. Giving a neutral or evil king in particular a reason to keep Alchemists alive is good for the game, and making it have a big impact on how things go adds strategic depth.
Beyond that, the BD should generally lynch the king if he’s evil. If they’ve reached the late game (and therefore don’t have enough of a majority to do it), and the Alchemist is still alive, and they’re depending on the Butler to save them… well, they’ve screwed up and deserve to lose. BDs need to pressure unhelpful kings more aggressively.
I get that you’re pissed about the high impact that evil kings have, but butler poison isn’t a solution, and nerfing Alchemists isn’t going to help. If you feel the king is too powerful, nerf the king, don’t make the interactions surrounding him more simplistic and boring. Alchemists being able to heal kings is interesting and adds depth to the game.
Think before you suggest things. Think about all the various ways mechanics are interconnected and how they will influence each other if changed. Don’t just randomly hammer unrelated stuff in order to hurt or help one role in particular. If you think evil kings are overpowered, the answer is obviously to tweak the specific powers that make kings so powerful (like Allies), not to break a major aspect of alchemists.
(I’m also very much not convinced that evil kings are powerful at all. Obviously an evil king helps evils, but in practice the impact is blunted by the fact that they don’t know the king is on their side, while the king doesn’t know his allies. In my experience, evil kings often end up ineffectual rather than carrying the game - they have a big impact, but it’s mostly by denying the BD the absolutely massive benefits of an active and aggressive BD king, not by doing anything particularly important themselves. Or, in other words, the issue isn’t that evil kings are overpowered, it’s that BD kings are overpowered and that losing this advantage therefore hurts the BD a lot. Whether the king gets poisoned or not makes no difference - you’re focusing on the wrong thing.)
i never understood why the butler poison can’t be like knights or princes ability. if king is good then the butler immediately dies instead of waiting for king to die from poison. the king just doesnt get poisoned.
Because that confirms the King’s alignment which is not supposed to happen. It is meant to be a mystery which you can only solve through scum-reading. This is why noone can invest him.
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going to be honest now I agree with OP but not for their reasons. Butler is very useless because if they poison before all alchs and phys are dead, the poison is wasted (a phys will still heal an obvious evil king because some are dense - I was once phys and healed three bleeding people back when only hunter caused bleed and they all turned out to be cult), and butler has a two use survival ability (party) which is terrible (poss, sorc, etc. go through) while alch has a 4 use one that is better. Very frustrating to have your coolest ability have no effect.