So I take it what I wrote is accurately what the character’s mechanics are? That’s what I’m going to assume by your response not correcting my post on the understanding of the mechanics.
Okay, lets walk through it.
Win condition: Getting 5 souls with the Contracts alone seems like a lot of work that requires some very good guesses of classes and needs AND players who don’t know what they are doing.
Now you transform at 3 souls, so you only need to make 3 Contracts which lightens the burden a bit. Once you do get 3 souls you essentially become a neutral killer on steroids, like super steroids. The BD knows this and any sensible person would avoid taking a Contract, with a possible exception for the Prince in a lobby with little to no living defenses (chrono, phys, knight - and in coming patch also CW). Another is in a lobby without Prince and BD knows the only real way for them to win is by letting the Archdevil kill all the Cultseen/NK for the BD.
Next point: The devil’s name.
While this is interesting at a conceptual level that this almighty being can be brought down by learning their true identity, it also presents some mechanical issues.
First of all you probably need a name table of Devil names. So if people start collecting these names they can eventually just copy-paste every single name into chat to get rid of a Devil.
Or the name needs to be procedurally generated into some random scribbles. At this point it might as well not exist as a mechanic where you have to guess the name but rather just straight up kill the Devil if 2 of his Contracted players are killed. If the Devil gets to 3 Contracts he’ll transform and the mechanic is forgotten.
You have to ask yourself how this mechanic really plays out in gameplay and how it actually adds positive impact on gameplay.
Next up: The defensive passive
It makes sense that the Devil is death immune, but it also makes him a rather problematic entity to get rid of in general, especially if he ascends.
Now if the souls mechanic is changed so if 2 Contracted souls are killed, the Devil will commit suicide Butler-style while unable to do anything, it mitigates that this is a neutral spawn that is borderline impossible to get rid of - unless you’re Sorc or Reaper or Frenzy empowered Assassin.
I like how the Devil doesn’t have bleed immunity, so healers can heal him and throw off some suspicion, but that he doesn’t die to bleed.
The souls mechanic in general.
Does this play into the same territory as the Reaper? So if the Reaper reaps a target that has entered into a Contract with the Devil, the Reaper is not rewarded a reaped soul?
If so that would be very infuriating as a Reaper. Flavorful, but ultimately very bad gameplay impact.
The logbook peek.
I’ll actually give some credit for a nice tool of information, but it would seem difficult to utilize. First of all the player needs to accept a Contract - previously I stated that BD will unlikely take a contract. At least later in the game, like N3 and onwards, and they will most likely out to the Court that they have taken a Contract.
The Contracted player knows they are being watched and can possibly utilize this against the Devil.
The most likely use of this information from the Devil’s point of view is to claim an Observer or similar to confirm themselves to the Court. However the Contracted player knows they are watched and any Observer who claims specifically to have watched a Contracted player has a high likelihood of being a Devil.
The mechanic is then a so-and-so whether it is actually useful.
It would be if it wasn’t connected specifically to Contracted souls.
The court alert of a risen Archdevil.
What’s the actual point of this? Just to announce to the Court that they are F’ed? The Archdevil is super OP and cannot be stopped, except by the Prince it seems - a bit unclear as you said the Archdevil was immune to everything including imprison - whether that meant he bypasses imprison, cannot be imprisoned or is immune to the Prince’s execution is unclear. So basically if the Court already knows who the Devil is, they only have one choice, which is to accuse the Devil of treason and execute him right then and there.
That doesn’t seem very good for either party.
The Contract
This is actually a very interesting concept and one I think you should attempt to expand and focus on as the primary function of this character.
This is the classic genie/devil/demon contract concept and there’s a simplicity and beauty to the very simple question; what are you willing to trade your soul for?
I’ll have a section below the run-through to expand on this.
If we run through each Sin and their benefit:
- Gluttony heals and gives death immunity for two nights. This is a classic and powerful benefit to be granted. Since it also protects your Contracted souls it is also one you’re really willing to give out as dead Contracted souls leads to your own demise.
- Wrath grants killers the ability to power through their attacks, especially useful for Assassin doing 2-for-1 or Sorc bombing. I’m against giving non-killers means to attack, especially with no repercussions.
- Pride grants the target double influence in court and allows them to vote (secretly) during their own trial. This is mainly something the Fool wants to secure their own execution. Late in the game it can be very powerful. I’m curious how this functions with players getting chosen for king AFTER getting Pride. Do their finger count for 3 total or 4 votes? There’s a problem with application as the Devil don’t want to grant too much court influence especially late in the game as that may close the game before they can secure their own win.
- Greed seems a bit lazy and doesn’t have any gameplay impacts. This should be reworked.
- Sloth mainly seems to help neutrals and could be considered to have other effects to apply more broadly. It literally does nothing for Sellsword/Butler/Drunk/Mystic though, which is a shame.
We’re missing Lust and Envy out of the 7 cardinal sins. Interesting to find a flavorful mechanic to apply to these sins.
So far it seems like Gluttony and Wrath are the two major sins to go for. Pride can be deceptively powerful, but all in context of the lobby. Greed and Sloth should probably be reworked, Greed to have gameplay impact and Sloth to apply more broadly.
And now we get to it, the heart of the problem: The Archdevil - Neutral Killer
Yes it is a neutral killer as it can attack directly, which is a defining characteristic for all killers with the partial exception of Hunter as they can only attack under condition. I wonder if this will be a neutral killer that can be elected Neutral King or if they do turn into Psycho King if elected as Archdevil.
Additionally since you become a Neutral Killer, does this mean your presence keeps the game going until you win or lose? So if there’s a lobby of pure BDs and an Archdevil, do you just nap BDs each night until you can win together with the remaining BDs…? Obviously you can be accused of treason and executed, given they find you. It’s a bit confusing.
I’ll say it bluntly; this class is overpowered and mechanically overloaded but possibly surprisingly difficult to win with. I get that the condition to get this far is steep and will likely be meta decided to not function at all - which is another reason why I think this class should be redesigned.
Win condtion: Live to collect 5 souls.
Well considering we already had to get 3 souls to even get to this point, you just need to kill two more people. Depending on how readily people will accept Contracts this can be super easy to do if done quickly, or it can be at a stage so late in the game that there are not enough targets/time to even get the needed souls.
Passive
Depending on how much the passive bypasses, it can be pretty impossible to stop an Archdevil if ascended within the first 6 days.
That imps attacks anyone who attack you just seems counterproductive to your wincondition by killing off either evils or BD Killers, closing out the game faster - which is not your ideal scenario.
Imp army
I’m not entirely sure how this is meant to function mechanically. Does the dead players you have Contracted just get voting rights? What if they leave? Dead chat might reveal something that resurrected imps can then try to convey to their Archdevil or mislead him. Wouldn’t it be more simple if the imps just automatically voted WITH the Archdevil instead of being dead players resurrected to vote for their own ideas? Since the Archdevil is announced to the Court already, the imp votes can appear just as the voting closes - so you cannot deduce who triggered the imp army.
Can you resurrect the same player/imp twice? I think not.
This ability seems unnecessary. The Archdevil in general doesn’t want anyone dying, except to him. Possible exception is to get rid of another Killer that may close the game prematurely - like a Sorc with mass bombing.
Fireball
Standard attack that bypasses death immunity. But your passive already says your abilities bypass all forms of protection, occupy and redirect. Seems redundant.
Pitchfork
You trade 1 soul (how does this even function with imps) to kill one player and everyone who visits them. So a Reaper circle on steroids, that at worst costs you nothing as the target you kill replaces the soul you used.
However considering you specifically need to only get +2 souls from the moment you arise, and you would need to get 3 kills with this to be faster/better than just Fireballing two targets over the next two nights, I don’t see why you would bother. Again more deaths that doesn’t cause you to win only serves to shorten the game and risk you cannot complete your win condition.
What I think you should focus on:
The crossroad Demon, the demonic Contractor that wins by granting boons to players.
Your suggestion has the Devil be the stepping stone before you turn into a powerhouse. But why not just have the Devil be a mischievous contractor that can benefit good and evils? Be truly neutral. This way you’re also less likely to become much of a problem for either faction - you don’t cause deaths, only troubles for either side.
You could have some added protections so if you are killed your Contracted souls will be ripped from their bodies - aka all players who have accepted a Deal will die with you. Gives your Contracted souls an incentive to aid you in Court, if they know who you are and might give their factions a reason to keep you around. Given their numbers, BD is the most likely you’re gonna try to make Contracts with and as long as they hold majority they will keep you from getting executed and may even try to protect you.
The gameplay of the Devil could be improved. As it stands the Devil only have a day ability. By doing nothing at night it makes the Devil’s gameplay rather boring and will appear very much like a Fool’s gameplay (or Hunter, or Mystic).
To provide them something to do at night and to give them means to gather information and possibly know who are likely to accept a contract, why not give them the same gameplay as Mystic? Give the Devil the Linking abilities.
It could mechanically function like the Invoker’s redirect where it selects two target to link - mechanically allows for both Link Minds and Conduit. This way the Devil may learn claims ahead of time and with the mere possible existence of a Devil in the game, people may say in link what kind of Contract they would be willing to accept - in case the “Mystic” is actually a Devil.
Now what happens if a Mystic AND a Devil attempts to link the same target(s)…?
One solution could be to strictly disallow a Mystic and a Devil to appear in the same match. Although that is also a bit iffy.
Another solution could be to let the second of the two receive a message that they cannot seem to come into contact with that/those players. The linking abilities are then refunded.
Another could be to let the Devil know when the Mystic uses a link ability, so they know who are linked and then choose to “listen in” (by linking themselves with that target) or to link another. If the devil listens in, the target nor mystic will know. The Devil may choose to speak during the link - making both the target and the Mystic know of their presence. If the Devil picks first and the Mystic tries to link the target, the Mystic will join and both the target and the Devil will be silenced for a brief moment to avoid exposing that a conversation was happening. The Devil may then take a back-seat and listen in.
If a Mystic links the Devil, the Devil will lose the ability to link their minds - already being occupied. The Devil will learn the identity of the Mystic - without the Mystic knowing. This happens whether the Devil is directly linked with the Mystic or through a Conduit.
If a Devil links a Mystic, the Mystic will not learn the identity but the presence of a Devil - as they were linked without them doing it. The Mystic loses the ability to link minds for that night while talking in the link set up by the Devil.
Why the disparity? Because a Devil who gets linked will be demanded a claim and logs for the night, but they cannot perform any actions to confirm themselves. If the Devil learn the identity of the Mystic, they can confirm themselves as a Devil to the Mystic the following day through a whisper or by linking the Mystic the following night. This gives the power of choice to the Devil who needs it more than the Mystic.
If a Mystic outs the Devil it also gives everyone someone to whisper with their contract desires - which might not be in BD’s favor.
In general the Devil don’t want to out themselves as they may be used later in the game as a means to get rid of many players who have accepted Contracts.
Additionally I think there should be restored some balance by having the Devil’s defenses be on the same level as Scorned/Inq - death immune for one night of attacks, but then vulnerable. It could be considered the passive refreshes. This could be time based or refreshing if a Contracted soul is killed.
If the Devil leans too heavily into one faction it may make the Devil vulnerable to get taken out, as the other faction can get rid of multiple people while also rendering the boons of the Contracts irrelevant. Meanwhile the faction the Devil leans into is vulnerable to the Devil getting taken out - meaning they want to protect the Devil.
Hopefully this will ensure that the meta wont turn out to want to get rid of the Devil ASAP, while the Devil don’t want to open claim unnecessarily, and it gives real weight to the Contracts. While powerful it comes with a cost.
It would also stomp the possible meta to force the Devil to grant Prince a Gluttony (Death Immune) Contract or get executed, as if they grant the Contract to Prince, the Prince is vulnerable on two targets.
By removing the Archdevil killer transformation, there’s no inherent issue with taking too many Contracts, meaning people have less reservation on taking Contracts, especially later in the game. There should be real incentive to take Contracts without it enabling a super killer.
The first death immune night for the Devil also ensures that if Evils haven’t attacked the Devil yet, they need two nights or a Frenzy kill to get rid of the Devil + Contracted souls.
I think it would be suitable from an information standpoint and fake claim possibility that you are notified if your Contract aided the target - aka it healed the target from bleed, made them death immune against an attack. Getting the feedback makes the Devil able to fake claim a lot of classes based on the feedback.
I’m not sure if the Devil should retain the ability to shrug off bleeds if they bleed out.
The win condition is a bit tricky to get into a range that is plausible, not too easy, not too hard.
I think a flexible win condition is acceptable, something like: Live to collect 5 souls or live to have collected the souls of half of the other remaining players, rounded down.
This means that if no one wants to accept the contracts early in the game, the Devil is not hopelessly behind, but can still win by getting the souls of the remaining players.
If their Contracted targets gets eliminated they wont count towards the half of remaining players, but will still count toward the 5 in total. If the Devil sits in a Court of 7 other players, they need 3 of them under contract to win. At this point there’s most likely someone getting desperate and can be tempted.
As for the actual Contracts it was flavorful to work on the 7 cardinal sins, but it seems a flavorfail to not have all 7. Instead the deals could be filed down into a select few that functions a lot like current class mechanics.
-
Deal of Renewal
Heal the Contracted of any bleed, they become death immune this night and the next.
-
Deal of Invisibility
The Contracted becomes immune to occupy and redirect and their attacks becomes unhealable for this night and the next.
-
Deal of Confusion
For this night and the next, redirect all players targeting the Contracted with an ability to a single other random target except yourself and The King. Redirect any player targeting the other player to the Contracted.
-
Deal of Discovery
Discover the true class of a random player at the end of the next night, except the starting King and the Devil. This ability is immune to Frame abilities and similar abilities that hide the player’s true class. If the player is executed the following day they will reveal their true class even if the Scorned has used Disguise. The Devil will know the results at the end of this night.
(You wont discover the same night that you accepted the Contract)
I don’t want to grant the ability to attack to non-killer classes, especially because it can shorten games and disable the Devil’s win condition.
I considered between a Merc Stand Guard and a CW Tornado for the alternative defensive version. Since the Devil gets notification of what their Contracts did - including who and where they redirect a person, they can utilize this information to fake claim and they can use the information to influence the game to run long enough for them to win.
The invest Deal is a work of odds and is mainly there to help a desperate player (mostly BD) to figure out the rights from wrongs and is especially called for if the BD has no invests remaining. Since it is random, you may get absolutely no information out of it, so it is a huge risk but for a rather high reward to hard confirm a player’s class.
I put in a delay, so you wont get the information straight away.
Additionally the mere existence of this ability gives plausibility for a random player to suddenly have evidence, whether that is correct or not. I made the Devil get the info in advance, so if it reveals the suspected last remaining evil, the Devil may take action to secure that it is not revealed to the Court.
This may grant the Devil an absurd amount of information, but since they don’t have any interest to end the game, the Devil have no natural incentive to share that information. They may divulge it if they come under threat themselves, but if it leads to a situation where the Devil cannot get enough Contracts to win if they spill the beans, they may have to ignore threats or mislead the one threatening, to buy time.
I think a support role like this could be an interesting addition to the game and would also be relatively close to what can be called True Neutral.
I fear the Devil/Archdevil concept would be too risky for players to accept the deals on and would lead to the Devil never accomplishing their win condition. The threat of a super neutral killer would be too problematic.
Feel free to use my revised Devil as inspiration for your own creation, but I do think the Archdevil has too many mechanics and power in general to make sense to add to the game.
