The power of blatant lies

#1

When playing ToL there is one thing I noticed evils doing that they shouldn’t especially as unseen. The scum rarely lie about anything meaningful. I remember seeing a big post about this for FM but the goal of the Unseen/Cult is not to trick people that your BD but to Trick people that others are not. You do this by BSing invest results.

Example:

Your assassin and you have an enforcer (how useless!). The MM could bus you to confirm himself and convert someone else OR you could claim that someone is unseen as sheriff. You could also claim Obs that found a neut in the early game or that you saw someone visit the person you killed. If they confirm whatever you say then you are confirmed and you bus the 3rd unseen. Otherwise you might be able to get them executed. If things go badly then the MM converts and its business as usual.

The time when this is most useful however is as the starting Evil King. Rather than putting everyone as BD you can around D3 or D4 accuse someone of being not BD then you know isn’t unseen. If they claim an unimportant BD then they will be executed and you would be next (but the unseen/cult might have a royal at that point). If they are an important BD then you decide fate. If they are neut then you are “confirmed not evil” and you might have just killed the NK.

Right now people always are too honest as Scum. Try claiming to NOT have been occupied. Or claim Prince to get him to waste an execute and a day of time.

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#2

In a conversion game, this is much smarter. In a non-conversion game, do remember that you’re actually attempting to accomplish both goals - or at least convince people that others are more dangerous than you for the time being.

#3

Even in games without conversion this is important to keep in mind. It just applies here more than anywere else yet I still never see it happen with anyone other than scorned.

#4

This is probably the optimal strategy while playing to win. In practice though, no one wants to die and spectate the rest of the game, which is why I think this is rarely done. Maybe the meta will develop and it will become the norm, but it seems unlikely to happen unless there is some kind of competitive mode to reward that style of play.

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#5

Hype for ranked much. I feel like the cult was designed spacificaly for this kind of strategy with the scrarifice mechanic and the CL always being replaced.

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#6

Yea, but it’s not bad for the unseen either, since they are limited to 3 people. Why not suicide one of your own to get a mislynch so the MM can convert again? Especially if you’ve found an investigative, it’s so much better to convert them and make sure their journal never sees the light of day, to say nothing for the mislynch potential.

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#7

Indeed you are correct hence the point of the post. People try too hard to survive when that isn’t their goal.

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#8

This strategy has come in handy many times, often as MM I bus 2 members out the door fairly late game pretending to be sher

#9

That is not what I am talking about. Busing is telling the truth about your unseen being unseen. While that is a good idea and you should do that it isn’t what the post is about. I’m saying that as assassin or the 3rd unseen you should try to make people seem as sus as possable even if the method is provable to be false (aka claiming to be a butler that found an occ immune when your the starting assassin when the other person is a phys)

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#10

It can be pretty risky at times to outright lie unless your team has time to get upto strength again afterwards . If the lie gets called on someone and they get vouched for you have made yourself suspicious with no gain .
Masterminds getting involved in this kind of shenanigans will lose games .
Likewise I subtle evil king that retains the throne for evil is often far more valuable than maybe getting a sheriff up .
Without knowing that you have an evil successor you are giving up a 4th spot in the unseen for a possible cheap execute .

If I know I am going down ill make a play , like the physicians are dead and someone’s poisoned me etc .

Likewise if unseen have a full squad it can be ok to make a play . But if you get called on your BS then you have given stuff up for no good purpose

#11

First of all the MM should never do this. All of my examples were with the other members.

Second of all my point is that the risk is worth it. If someone calls you out on it then you sus them for doing so. As long as the person is not 100% confirmed you can keep pushing them and possibly get multiple miss kills at once.

People tend to be scared to act out of line as unseen when what you should be doing is causing as much chaos as you can. That way if later in the game someone is pushing the MM you can just claim that they are doing the same BS the last 2 people were. Do this enough and no one will trust anyone but themselves and at that point you will win every time.

#12

I know I say 2 members of my team are evil (over course of game) while claiming to be sheriff to confirm myself

#13

That’s great and all but that is the current meta. What people don’t do is “Bus” the BD as unseen. You are not accusing the BD when you are MM. This post is about the power of using demonstrably flase statements to get someone executed. (Saying they are immune to occupy, Saying they were night immune, saying they visited the person who was killed ect.) If your MM doing this on your own unseen then that is its own thing. This is the other unseen doing this on the BD to cause confusion.

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#14

A good lie to tell is if someone has posted there journal to defend themselves and they say they have done something to you . Completely deny they came near you . ( ie drunk said they debauched you etc , or princess has correctly stated your class , say you are support/social so they are wrong) Only do this on a single line of text .
After the ex if anyone blames you claim you never said anything like that , hopefully someone will pipe up with the classic “scorned ?” and it will all blow over . ( if you are also evil you should quickly jump on the scorned bandwagon .)

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#15

Bump because it’s still helpful

#16

This text is really true tbh

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#17

Yup. I’ve also found that the best time to accuse someone is immediately after being converted to the Unseen N1. That way the prince can’t even execute you the next night so they instead do it the next day which leaves the MM open to convert again.

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#18

This also does not work very optimally for the assassin depending on the situation to be honest and cult almost always has room to convert more. If you make any blatant lie as an assassin you will be debbed/jailed/occupied that night. That alone already takes away the mislynch you just made them do. MM can also not convert that night, because you are still alive on that night that prince executes you. It also gives the BD the potential to trap the unseen, where MM cannot convert because of the convert limit and assassin cannot kill. Simultaneously, the 3rd convert has the best fakeclaim, because he can actually reliably fake his unconverted counterpart, as opposed to MM/assassin that have to rely on the typical fakeclaims. I typically do the same thing as 3rd convert though, but it only works well if you have a good player as assassin/MM.

#19

I always claim hunter now a days

#20

Even if that is possible it really never happens. People are far too trigger happy. I’ve even had times where I was able to get a second misslynch off back to back as the same person as before.

My record is 4 mislynches caused as a starting assassin. I spent the game using a sellsword to guard me and later kill the king.

Also the fake claim the convert has is often worth giving up for a misslynch. Especially if they THINK you are the assassin and waste time coordinating you being held down