Too many non-convertible players (early game discussion)

Early game is so crucial for the Cult and Unseen. If you get occupied or attempt to kill someone who is night immune, your days are numbered. This is especially tough for Masterminds and Cult leaders. I understand that BD needed a chance, but these advantages feel lopsided. If you are unlucky with kills/etc. then you have to rely on the BD to implode, become an excellent liar (which is fine), or a neutral killer to clean house.
Let’s take a look at the non-convertible classes:

  • Prince (understandable)
  • Priest
  • King (understandable)
  • Alchemist
  • Neutral Killer (Possessor/Reaper)
  • Fool and Scorned

Now the alchemist/fool/scorned can play to your advantage but you have to rely on their individual skill and luck to make it work in your favor. There is no guarantee they’ll be alive in the early game. That’s a total of eight non-convertible players. Most games you’ll see at least two alchemists and every other game a neutral killer.
So, to in order to get a jump on the early game, you have to make good guesses which is too RNG reliant. I understand that a lot of people can die night one, including the Prince… but if you can’t get a conversion by day three or four, you will be at a huge disadvantage for the remainder. So you have to rely on having an Evil King based on the outcome of the late game.

Here was my last Mastermind game:
Night One: 9 immune to conversion.
Night Two: Jailed.
Night Three: One conversion.
Day Four: Prince is revived and accuses you of treason on a sheer hunch/or the dead provide him with information. You die, so no more conversions - assassins are heavily outnumbered.

So at this point the Evil King (which is unknown) has to put in the work and hope that Alchemist can stay alive to heal him. The problem is, most people are still new and are more than happy to execute the King. And neutral killers are more than happy to attack the King at night.

Here is my solution: Priest should be convertible. Give him one night immunity for death/conversion. After that, he can be converted. My games used to be favored for the Unseen/Cult, but now the Blue Dragon are winning far more games than the Unseen/Cult were.

I will admit however, Cult does seem to have a slight advantage because you can always have a Cult Leader. But having one physician and up to two alchemists means that abilities such as Rupture aren’t very strong.

tl;dr: Cult/Unseen are heavily RNG dependent in the early game. I would suggest having the priest immune to death/conversion one night. There are too many non-convertible players which puts them at a disadvantage. If the Cult/Unseen fails at conversion by the third or fourth day (if you aren’t dead/jailed), your chances of success dramatically decreases.

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6/14 plus somebody jailed is 50% or 1/2 chance. And you have 3 nights to convert somebody before you can be detected. I like those odds.

Personally I find the problem larger in the mid-game than the early game. When you are trying to replace your losses, a larger portion of the convertable roles are dead either by your hand or the NK etc… You really often are looking at a 25% or less chance as the noose is tightening around your neck and you need to close the gap. As the alc, scorned and priest are the most likely to have stayed alive on their own rights, the prince probably had someone guarding him etc…

I’m starting to feel they’ve overpushed Alchemist. Maybe make it convertible would balance the game out more.

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It would help a lot, especially since 2 in one game is far from uncommon.

I concur with convertible alch

now that I think of it, I’m even more on board with convertable alc… while it does make the bd more likely to lynch an alc on sight… on the other hand, a converted alc wins with cult/unseen, and thus no longer has the single point of failure of a “survive to the end” neut.

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Here was my last Mastermind game:
Night One: 9 immune to conversion.
Night Two: Jailed.
Night Three: One conversion.
Day Four: Prince is revived and accuses you of treason on a sheer hunch/or the dead provide him with information. You die, so no more conversions - assassins are heavily outnumbered.

So at this point the Evil King (which is unknown) has to put in the work and hope that Alchemist can stay alive to heal him. The problem is, most people are still new and are more than happy to execute the King. And neutral killers are more than happy to attack the King at night.

Has anyone played one of those games where the prince doesn’t guess the mastermind turn 4 on a hunch and the game plays out differently ? This sounds like " I lost one game , can we change everything so that I never have to face this again …"

Also if mm is dead and progress isn’t being made exe the king is not a noob only strategy . Likewise neutral killer needs to king out asap as he is most likely player to catch a neutral killer .

I still win most games when I am mm . the random guess you are talking about also is not always as random as you think . Some part of your story might not make sense or an investigator has leaked knowledge to the prince that calls out whichever story you have made up .

Or it is hunch , but when put on the stand rather than posting a believable log you have cried about the injustice of being accused .,

I’ve had it happen MULTIPLE times. It’s legitimately annoying and the Prince almost always somehow dies and then finds out the Unseen. I’ve legitimately seen a Prince die N1 and then they exe every Unseen member by D3-D5.

Talking to the ded is strong

It makes Neut killers practically unplayable.

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Which is why revived players are so powerful

Not too mention there can be two court wizards who barrier 4 people. So that is 10 to 12 people who are convert immune not counting revived targets. So you and an assassin makes 14 out of the 16 people who can’t be converted. You can convert 2 people. Good luck guessing which ones.

Potentially barrier everyone, but not enough to coordinate.

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Easily the hardest roles to play in this game.

Counting practical unconvertibles.

3(King Prince Priest) - > 4 (+ revived CW) - > 6 (+ 2 CW Barriers) - > 8 + (2 more CW Barriers) - > 10 (2 sheriff scouts (the scouted players are as good as unconvertable)) - > 14 + (Non-merc Neuts)

The last 2 is the starting Unseen.