[VFM] JoaT^2 - (6/15) - 😹 Pirates (Town) Win!

[Wisp]

@sulit
what do you think of the read list that was pointed out by Ash? from Mole

[Wisp]

also if anyone as town or mafia games from Mole, that would be great to read once I get back, gotta help my mother for a little bit

[ash4fun]

tbh I haven’t really been paying attention to sulit.

like I’m still not sure I like how they handled that vote but ig it makes a bit more sense now.

I still don’t think it’s fair to compare d3 reads that have been confirmed by flips to d1 reads, and afaik I’m not undercutting previous posts. But I guess the vote makes a bit more sense.

[Flameo]

@Moleland

Can you please substantiate your vote on Wisp more? Some quotes would be helpful. I’m not seeing what you’re seeing in their posts thus far.

[Flameo]

I quite like Sulit’s posting even though a lot of posts are very wasteful. I could see where literally all their takes were coming from to be honest.

Except Gorta, who I should still read as well, since they finally popped up!

[katze]

@CatLover

I then felt that you had contradicted yourself on sulit, saying that you didn’t know what was AI for her but then giving meta-tells of hers.

can you point out these posts

@CatLover

but I just now realized that the post was in reply to asking you about Leafia, so I take that line of thought out of my read all together.

oh

@CatLover

I slightly lean the 2nd, because you used vul’s town read on you to push him and that could come from the mindset of someone who knows he is wrong and is pushing him for it, but it’s a light read and not something I am going to push off of

i assume you’re talking about post #310 here, so i’ll clarify a bit on what i was thinking when i wrote that post

the fact that he was changing his read on me specifically was coincidental (but it certainly made it easier to notice)

i found his thought process slightly unnatural because he did a complete 180 all because i asked him to elaborate on his read on me

which isn’t a very AI post imo, do you disagree?

@CatLover

You talk a lot about how hard you are to read too.

i take more pride in being hard to read than i should tbh

which has been an issue in past games

@katze

@Possessed

I’m usually like 40/60 right/wrong on my reads of you Katze

this is honestly pretty good for most people

unfortunately im hydraed with someone whos probably easier to read than me

@Possessed

@katze

unfortunately im hydraed with someone whos probably easier to read than me

Uh what

@Marshal

@katze

unfortunately

HMMMMM™

@katze

i cant say “haha im so hard to read”

because chloe is significantly less so

@Marshal

EH

PROLLY CHECKS OUT NGL

@katze

oh SHIT is that a FUCKING SCUMSLIP

@katze

have you seen me play town? i take pride in being hard to read

@Marshal

I THINK THIS READ

MIGHT BE SHIT

BCUZ KAT PRIDES THEMSELVES IN BEING A BITCH TO READ

@Marshal

AS THE SLIP KING LET ME TELL YOU

UNLESS A PERSON LIKE EXPLICITLY SAYS THEY ARE SCUM

LOTS OF “SLIPS” END UP BEING FROM TOWN

AND KAT"S EXPLANATION CHECKS OUT

CONCLUSION: PROLLY NOT A SLIP TBH

(for clarification, every quoted person in the above dropdown box was town)

@CatLover

I believe you are being slightly hypocritical of people’s reads on you, you castigate people for giving weak reasons to town read you, but reading your read lists they feel just as brief.

for what its worth i jotted down my thoughts on people and wasn’t fully intending on turning it into a readlist (or writing on every player) but then i wrote about everybody and figured i’d put it all in an easier to read format

[CatLover]

@katze

which isn’t a very AI post imo, do you disagree?

I mean, I would have to get the context, and read it heavily, and probably don’t want to focus on that 1 hour before EoD. But even if I didn’t see it, I would be far more interested in vulgard’s thought process and if he thought the post was AI and why. Even if I think a read is faulty, it’s important to understand why they had that read and if their mindset made sense. Did you ask him why he turned around so fast, or did you just say that the 180 was scummy?

[katze]

@katze

elaborate on this thought

@Vulgard

I no longer think that after you wrote this, so any explanation is going to be moot.

@katze

what post of mine changed your mind?

@Vulgard

Literally the one I responded to, I think the way you’re handling my slot is very consistent with your villagery thought process in the last FoL.

@katze

…me saying “elaborate on this thought” is consistent with my villagery thought process?

there’s nothing stopping me from writing that as a wolf

confused katze noises

@Vulgard

You would not be approaching my slot the way you are approaching it now as a wolf, that is my take. It has less to do with the content of your posts and more to do with the process that led you there.

Like, if you were a wolf here, I would expect you to have an earlier conclusion and/or do something more proactive.

you can jump to the posts and read yourself but this should give you a decent bit of context

[Flameo]

@an_gorta_pratai

@Flameo

I will note that all of these are townreads, which is mildly suspicious. It’d be more natural if you had at least one scumread in here.

I didn’t see where that list as townreads. Am I missing something?

… all the reads indicate a townread. You clearly did not read their readlist. Can you please be a bit more active? You’re doing a disservice to whatever team you’d be on.

@an_gorta_pratai

Another thing, we need to decide on a single lynch and have more votes there because if we don’t this happens

@Arete

In cases where two or more players are tied at the end of the day, the Mafia will decide which player is executed. They have up to half an hour to make this decision (for angleshooting purposes, the full half hour will always be used). They may submit preferences in advance, and if they do not submit a timely choice it will always be assumed that they wish to save a member of the Mafia if that member is put to rand with a member of the Town.

We do not give this to scum We are either going mole or ash today and that’s final unless there is an CFD later, but everyone on each wagon you need to convince each other why said vote is the best because ties are not acceptable here

@an_gorta_pratai it would help if you voted too then! I think it’s good to bring up this point again, regardless of how I could see both alignments do this.

@an_gorta_pratai

In regards to Moleland: I think mole is probably town. The paranoia of Leafia seems valid, Mole is pinging inactives for contribution, and their progression on slots like leafia seems fine. I just think this will flip town, but then again I haven’t seen too many Moleland scum games

@an_gorta_pratai

but then again I haven’t seen too many Moleland scum games

I dislike that they finished off with this conditional, but they do quite immediately make their stance fairly clear

@an_gorta_pratai

In terms of todays execution we always go ash. I don’t know why in the hell y’all are voting Mole, but I think Mole is town. I wouldn’t lock that in, but we don’t get rid of Mole today

@an_gorta_pratai

I wouldn’t lock that in

oh wait nvm, it’s another conditional.

@an_gorta_pratai

Derps, if you have any objections you need to explain it all because I know you can, just try for us.

I think more players could use this advice to give more context.

@an_gorta_pratai

@ash4fun could you link us some example town and scum games?

@an_gorta_pratai

I just need to fill my 20 post quota and such, but yeah how do you feel about the players that don’t get as much attention?

This is so LAMIST, considering they mentioned earlier they just wanted to fulfill the 20 post quota. Who sincerely believes an_gorta is going to go through those games?

@an_gorta_pratai

I don’t want to believe that the scum are just in the inexperienced/newer players here because everytime we say that we are usually wrong

Please be more specific then. Who are these experienced players that are scum?

I am fairly conflicted on this slot. An_gorta really has a lot… of traditionally towny things to say. A few, I could find fake and posturing, but they have so many differently angled traditionally towny things. I will say that overall this slot is null scum still.

[CatLover]

I mean, it was only 250 posts in. It is a meta read so I can’t say I love it, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with him reversing an early read because he saw a post or series of posts from you that he found villagery. Just because those happened to be posts questioning the wolf read doesn’t make that more valid.

I might be giving him the benefit of the doubt, but I can see him doing this as town.

But I find my thoughts on this to be unimportant. I want you to elaborate a little more on what you were thinking in this instance.

Why exactly did you think it was more likely to be from mafia, and how do your posts reflect you handling the situation with that mindset. I believe you are capable of casing yourself and I want you to run me through exactly what you were thinking in that instance.

[ash4fun]

I think I mostly agree with you about gorta. Having a lot of “but then again maybe not” phrases is nagl.

@Flameo

An_gorta really has a lot… of traditionally towny things to say. A few, I could find fake and posturing, but they have so many differently angled traditionally towny things.

On the fake townieness, it’s possible that:

@an_gorta_pratai

I just need to fill my 20 post quota and such

is a non-scum motivation for that imo.

[Elephas]

I am doing a very very fast catch-up. I cannot say how long I will be available.

@sulit

time to look at elphas

I have still not gotten a notification that you quoted or mentioned me. Curious about your thoughts on my slot. It has been two hours.

@Flameo

/unvote I have had an exceptionally bad day irl, so I’m going to eat some dinner first and then catch up in a hopefully relaxed manner before I recast my vote.

I dislike this unvote. They seemed rather confident in the vote earlier in the day. They didn’t unvote because they dislike the wagon, or because they found a new wagon to go on.
We have time until the end of the day. Why can’t Flameo stay on ash while they read over others?

I do not want to pre-flip, but I do not like the feeling this gives me.

@SirDerpsAlot

it took me all of 5 min to look through to this point??

Derps going back through old games to show that CatLover was cherry-picking is a good look.

---

Ash’s wall on Mole seems to have a conclusion in mind beforehand. Which I do not like.
I will be staying here

---

[ash4fun]

@Elephas

a conclusion in mind beforehand

yes. The conclusion I made when I first read their iso yesterday.

[CatLover]

Sorry, I am just feeling very meme-y today! I will say however that the fact that you are saying that you came to a conclusion before explaining why makes me think that the wall was not a genuine attempt at solving but instead a wall just trying to push a read.

I feel like your iso lacks a large amount of genuine solving and feels more like you are just trying to push the game in 1 direction or the other.

[Elephas]

I mean the conclusion that we should vote Mole.

You quoted places that you did not think gave him a bad look, and yet your conclusion was that we should vote him anyways. It feels like self preservation hidden as a read.

@ash4fun

nvm this is about what happened in anther game.

This argument is moot.

@ash4fun

That’s a lot of nulls. Seems consistent with what they’ve posted so far, tho.

This implies you dont think its wolfy

@ash4fun

I don’t really understand how “I’m pretty sure this is scum” is only “weakscum”. Could be consistent with scum trying to not offend, could just be how they label stuff doesn’t really reflect the strength of the read as I’m used to.

This does not seem to be alignment indicative, as you do not take a solid stance on it.

@ash4fun

Going through the iso, I’m finding a lot of stuff I consider wolfy like shading and hedging. Also more nullreads than I think a normal town player should have at this point in the game.

One thing I didn’t really find was agenda though.They don’t seem to actually be trying to push the exe or town consensus any particular direction.

Bolded = you said this lines up with his thought process. Implying it is not wolfy. This should not be in your conclusion.

It isnt consistent.

Is it self-preservation?

[Elephas]

What I am trying to say is that I don’t believe that you believe in this read.

Going into an Isolation-dive with a conclusion in mind beforehand shows that you are not open to re-evaluation.

[ash4fun]

idk if it affects how you see the wall, but most of the points I made, were thoughts I had when I made their entry in the readslist.

The “no agenda” bit was something I only found the second time tho.

So at that point in time, you’re right that I wasn’t really solving mole but rather expounding on my previous findings.

[katze]

@CatLover

Why exactly did you think it was more likely to be from mafia, and how do your posts reflect you handling the situation with that mindset. I believe you are capable of casing yourself and I want you to run me through exactly what you were thinking in that instance.

i can try

nyoom

@katze

@Vulgard

This is the exact same reaction I got last time I correctly townread him as town, so yeah. Lock it in.

Something’s up with kat this game, I think. Their entrance felt… slow. Like they tried to settle into the thread as easily as possible (by voting sulit) instead of doing it naturally. Don’t know if it makes sense, but it’s worth a vote fmpov.

/vote katze

elaborate on this thought

by the way im only going to read you by “this post was written by a villager” and “this post was not written by a villager” because i know you love it

i’ll italicize what i remember of my thought process

why does vulgard think my entrance was slow? i dont think it was slow

@Vulgard

I no longer think that after you wrote this, so any explanation is going to be moot.

interesting, i haven’t really written anything since that initial read though?

@katze

what post of mine changed your mind?

maybe he just reread my entrance?

@Vulgard

Literally the one I responded to, I think the way you’re handling my slot is very consistent with your villagery thought process in the last FoL.

but all i did was ask him to clarify on a thought why does that change his mind

@katze

…me saying “elaborate on this thought” is consistent with my villagery thought process?

there’s nothing stopping me from writing that as a wolf

confused katze noises

@Vulgard

You would not be approaching my slot the way you are approaching it now as a wolf, that is my take. It has less to do with the content of your posts and more to do with the process that led you there.

Like, if you were a wolf here, I would expect you to have an earlier conclusion and/or do something more proactive.

@katze

i don’t think you’re right at all?

like i see your thought process but i don’t agree with it

@Vulgard

I won’t pretend I can read your mind, there’s just something about your village game which your wolf game doesn’t have.

I think it’s paranoia levels? You seem mildly paranoid right now.

@katze

@Vulgard

I think it’s paranoia levels? You seem mildly paranoid right now.

im not paranoid at all

i asked you to elaborate because reading peoples’ thought processes makes it easier to read them

this applies moreso to you than most players

i think my thought process is very transparent in the above posts though

i feel like you’re missing an important part of the interaction though

@katze

his posts were probably written by a villager

at the end of it i didn’t scumread him

i thought those specific posts were odd but i thought the rest of his posts were fine

when vulgard is a wolf i usually hate almost all of his posts, especially his entrances and when he’s under pressure

[CatLover]

You are right, I missed that. I no longer think that it was self-TMI into agenda because you weren’t using it for a serious push on vul. Still do not know what to make of you, but this conversation has been good, thank you for helping clear that up for me!

[Arete]

Vote Count

Vote Target	Voted by	Votes
Wiisp	Moleland	1/8
Moleland	CallMeIo, Vulgard, ash4fun, Wiisp	4/8
ash4fun	CatLover, Elephas, Sulit	3/8
CallMeIo	katze, Wazza, Leafia	3/8
Catlover	SirDerpsAlot	1/8
katze	centuries	1/8

@ me for any mistakes or future votes