[VFM] JoaT^2 - (6/15) - 😹 Pirates (Town) Win!

[Arete]

Vote Count

Vote Target	Voted by	Votes
Intensify	Vulgard	1/4

[Vulgard]

@Vulgard

#3953

Note the progression on Flameo. Initially townread, then kinda dropping.

#3969

Acknowledges that PK’s posts are not very good.

#3974

“No resistance on PK.”
Possibly an argument not to yeet them. Looks bad in light of PK’s flip. “Oh, he’s kinda scummy, but no resistance so maybe town?”

#3980

“I feel like scum would try to save PK here”

Hahahaha.

#4007

Now defending PK despite considering his posts not very good. “NO RESISTANCE DOE.” Complains about Wazza pushing him.

#4449

Now harddefends PK and hardpushes Flameo. Flameo is about to bury a wolf here, and suddenly Intensify is all like “I MUST SAVE PK.”

Also, he didn’t react like this to Wazza pushing PK because PK was not in as much danger back then.

#4458

“Flameo was on the verge of being lonched, of course he would claim Joat.”

PK DID THE EXACT SAME THING.

But Intensify is ignoring it because “NO RESISTANCE DOE.”

#4483

“The Joat claim, which was PK. You could say PK was scummy, but in the end they can just self-resolve or be tracked by Joat but yet Flameo still pushes them for this entire day”

FLAMEO CAN SELF-RESOLVE TOO.

This is someone who wants a JOAT yeeted because otherwise they are in trouble.

Like, Intensify is intentionally ignoring things which do not fit his narrative. He spent a lot of time harddefending a wolf without evaluating PK as “potentially a wolf.” Just a few off-hand comments.

His wolfread on Flameo rests on Flameo claiming JOAT and pushing PK. Intensify’s stance on JOAT claims was allegedly “let them resolve,” but Flameo’s different because he’s… pushing PK?

This looks like chainsaw to me.

My problems with that slot in a nutshell. I think the way they handled PK/Flameo was the worst by far, and I’m not saying that just because they harddefended PK.

[Vulgard]

The thing about Wazza is also weird because, like. Wazza pushing PK doesn’t really do anything. He doesn’t have any influence over the thread. So Intensify handles it appropriately, by not caring.

Then Flameo swoops in and destroys PK. Now Intensify is screaming to yeet Flameo immediately. All the “let it resolve” crap went out the window once he realized PK was caught in a lie. If PK gets yeeted here, Flameo gets protected, two JOATs are alive and he always loses by PoE. Can’t let it happen.

[Vulgard]

The only reason I see bussing potential in Wazza is because I don’t know what he’s been doing this whole game, and the fact he’s been on PK’s case for the entire day, even ignoring the JOAT claim war, is notable too.

[Centuries]

@CatLover

So far I am a pretty big fan of sulit’s tone in thread. She seems to have this almost concealed confidence about her. On first glance, it seems like she’s just having fun in thread, but in a few of her posts, I see a subtle side come out that I think is a really good look!

I am specifically looking at this interaction:

@Leafia

In all seriousness though, I’m not sure I like the voting being this early, despite being pretty sure they’re not serious votes.

@sulit

/vote leafia

On first glance her vote just looks like a RVS vote, but when analyzing the context she clearly did it in reaction to leafia’s negative feelings towards early voting. This almost joking seriousness shines through in a few other spaces.

@sulit

(Katze is my mason but they don’t know that ok)

@sulit

We must talk like cowboys

@sulit

on the serious side kat is lock town never rescind

It’s a mix of making jokes about katze being her mason, and off-topic joking, but I get the honest feeling that there is an air of earnestness in the last post.

This specific vibe of a joking exterior with a serious undertone is something I would consider to be pretty town-indicative, specifically of a person who wants to joke around or minpost early but also cannot help themselves making reads and having the desire to play and advance threadstate mixed in with the joking. I have experienced this myself in my earlier years and this specific feeling comes from town almost exclusively unless experienced Mafia players are hoping to imitate this exact energy.

It’s a really high level read for a 5th post

@CatLover

So it was a serious read? Knew it! Even better!

I am [I]really[?I] liking sulit at the moment!

Wording is sus all around

I think it’s fairly town sulit indicative with intent on deepwolfing

@CatLover

I have explained why! Did you not read my post?

I explained that I thought that the off-topic posting with the undertone of an urge to solve was why I found her to be more likely town, and the fact that I correctly predicted her read on katze having actual beliefts behind it makes me think that my original post was in fact correct!

It’s also very confrontational and I’m not sure Leafia would be a big fan of W/W this early

@CatLover

My vote was just a RVS vote. Got to give a little love bite to a fellow kitty like mine do to me . I will place a more serious one once I read the posts that happened while I was away!

This post and the wisp post exist

@CatLover

Right now Moleland seems to just like making other people feel upset for his own enjoyment. I strongly object to this type of slightly mean tone and style he has. I do, however, have experience dealing with people like this. You sure do meet a range of people on the internet the longer you have been on .

Read on scum

@CatLover

Vulgard seems very over-eager. I want to see if he keeps this level of high WiM later on and what he does with it. He seems super polarizing right now, kind of a “you love him, or you hate him” type guy. I am honestly not sure where most of these reads come from, I see a lot of unsubstantiated posts just saying that he is a mafia or he is a town with no reasoning.

I think his eagerness, specifically to solve, is townie. This read is subject to change, it depends on how he handles his posting, but so far it seems like he is responding to and consuming as many posts as he can, and thoroughly enjoying it. From my experience, both how I personally feel and what I’ve seen over my years of playing, is that wolves often do not genuinely enjoy faking solving (I sure don’t ) , and vulgard just seems realy happy with himself!

Maybe I am biased because I like to see people enjoying themselves, but the way he is going through posts and his tone while doing so gives me the vibe of “town member who is having fun towning”.

don’t think they just post reads on both scum :^)

@CatLover

If I had to make a towncore of sorts based off of my analysis i’d probably add:

Myself (Obviously!)
Sulit
Vulgard

I think Sulit is tmi’d town because they really like

go full on their read which is unconventional

@CatLover

My current wagon thoughts on mole/ash wagons is that mole probably should be easier to read later down the line. I can’t say I like his attitude in the slightest, and this high-horse persona that he seems to have makes it difficult to read him without flips. That exe could improve game quality itself but I am unsure on if it hits a wolf.

@CatLover

At the moment I would be okay , with either execution

[quote=“CatLover, post:1898, topic:83078, full:true”]
Casing on Wazza:

The first half of this posting is something that I don’t think is alignment indicative. This general deflated “I hate this game, just kill me already” can and has come from different alignments. Trying to read in to those types of posts just leads to cherrypicking quotes to fit what you think, and confirmation bias. I’ll admit I did try to read in to it heavily earlier but at this point I think the best way to handle his posts about hating that he randed VT is just to ignore them or at the very least admit there’s not much to be gleaned from them, and just focus on the posts of his I can find that don’t relate to that.

[quote=“Wazza, post:734, topic:83078”]

@sulit

I haven’t really seen the above yet and the fact he used the same argument he did as Replay, “I don’t want to post reads till asked because my reads are shit,”
[/quote]

Because this is a genuine argument. I play as scum the way I play as Town.

One thing I’ve found in general is, regardless of the alignment of the person posting this, they will usually believe it is true. Not that it is- but he will usually think he has no differences at all between his Town and Mafia games. I have no interest in looking at his past games, so I do not care if there are tonal differences between the two, but this mindset may be important later.

He approached the wall that the above quoted post is in in a way that I have struggled to interpret but I have come to the conclusion that Wazza and Sulit is t/w. I’ve mulled over this wall for about 10-15 minutes and this is the conclusion i’ve come.

Summary

@Wazza

Honestly I feel like she is Town but she’s spiting for the Replay/Venus thing back in that game.

@sulit

As town Wazza is way more aggressive and active and he is COMFORTABLE IN THE THREAD.

This is a fair point, I’ll give you that. But I can counter it based on the fact that I’m Vanilla Town.

@sulit

Wazza as town is pretty obvious in my opinion because it’s pretty easy to see when he actually believes in his reads or just chill I’m the thread tbh.

I gave up believing in my reads after FoL 29 and the alt game, even if I was Mafia. Posting my reads just makes everyone suspects me so I completely give up on reads at this point. They’re stupid and when I try give my opinions I’m instantly suspected for it.

@sulit

I haven’t really seen the above yet and the fact he used the same argument he did as Replay, “I don’t want to post reads till asked because my reads are shit,”

Because this is a genuine argument. I play as scum the way I play as Town.

@sulit

It’s also sucky you’re using the anon game to meta read me as I purposely tried to play different and tried out different methods to read people. I specifically played on an alt because I don’t want to be held to that standard of play in normal games.

I think I can use it to state that you’re using a salt read.

@sulit

Earlier in the game he seemed kinda jumpy and posts didn’t lead much if anywhere

Explain?

@sulit

Later all he did was argue with me tbh. He forgot about the game even though he’d posted earlier

Because you were pushing me so I returned the favour.

@sulit

Also said he read the thread but no reads except me scum for pushing him ):

I have more reads, but once again, everyone fucking scumreads me for my opinions so I’m not posting them.

Sorry about the late response, I took a ‘nap’ and woke up 9 hours and a half later.

I have a lot of mixed feelings from this wall, but I have ascertained a few things from it that I believe to be telling. I think that, in this wall, he is approaching this wall from the mindset that sulit is town. He says so at the beginning and the way his reads and posts are formulated makes me think that he had genuinely approached this from the mindset that sulit is town. This could mean a few worlds (Wazza wolf and is TMIing sulit town, Wazza town and is townreading sulit), but it distinctly does not feel like it’s from somebody who has TMI on sulit being mafia. Therefore I think that it is not w/w.

I can go into further detail on the posts that made me specifically think he does not have TMI on wolf!sulit, but to make it more concise i’m just putting the general reasoning here.

He ended up voting and pushing CallMeIo later (I know he said he was not going to make reads, but I am not going to fault him for going back on that nor do I think it’s inherently wolfy as I can see the mindset of wanted to play the game as town even if you said earlier you weren’t)

I like how he stands his ground when CallMeIo pushed him, specifically the way he attacked him for his perceived poor arguments. There was focused aggression when he was drilling Io that made me feel like this was more than pushing Io for more than just pushing him. Posts like these:

Summary

@Wazza

Io, you haven’t explained why the wagon looks unpure.

[quote=“Wazza, post:1163, topic:83078”]

@CallMeIo

You don’t even acknowledge my reasoning
[/quote]

I acknowledge your lack of reasoning, if that’s what you want me to say.

[quote=“Wazza, post:1163, topic:83078”]

@CallMeIo

Seems to me like you just desperately wanted me to changed my mind about Ash.
[/quote]

Desperately? I don’t even scumread Ash, nor care about his wagon. I was bringing up a point and playing Devil’s Advocate.

@Wazza

Yeah I want you voted since 5 times you’ve been asked to explain why the Ash wagon is unpure and 5 times you have ignored the question.

@Wazza

I can’t even see this argument coming from Town. Your reasoning makes absolutely no sense, not to mention you constantly ignored the people asking about your point, and then when asked about it, you change your complete mind on it and state something completely unrelated and something that wouldn’t matter with it. It seems more like a scum saving a fellow scum, but shrug.

[quote=“Wazza, post:1182, topic:83078”]

@CallMeIo

Since when is Mole inactive?
[/quote]

…When did I state Mole was inactive? I was responding to Centuries who stated you were pushing on inactives.

[quote=“Wazza, post:1182, topic:83078”]

@CallMeIo

Seems to me like your defending him.
[/quote]

Literally didn’t mention Mole at all.

@Wazza

@CallMeIo

But that’s the only person I’m pushing.
[/quote]

You’re legit pushing me, you literally just- you know what, I quit, I’m too tired for this shit today.

@Wazza

You hurt my head when you contradict yourself.

Feel like he is attacking Io with a purpose behind it and that purpose being to highlight hypocrisy. It could be just because I genuinely do think the things he highlighted are good things to point out but but I liked the way he did it, the additude he did it with, and what he actually did end up accomplishing.

My only reservation on this point is that he proceeded this whole thing with a vote (before really getting in to the meat and potatoes of the contradictions) and there is a world where he only started looking for things that looked bad after he decided he wanted to push Io but I still appreciated the push itself and thought it was good even if there’s a chance it was preplanned.

Conclusion:

I lightly town read Wazza for his push and aggression on CallMeIo near the end of his ISO, and do not think he is ever w/w with sulit.

mhhmhm

@CatLover

Moleland Case:

I have already talked about why I disagree with moleland’s additude. I don’t think he’s been very nice in general but i’m not going to focus on that fact as of right now. What I want to focus on is his behavior with this in mind, particularly at the end of the day.

I’ll out what I thought was the best way to read moleland (with flips). It all depends on convictions and actions afterwards. A player like him, as town, will think they are right, and will react to being right/wrong after learning if they were with either supreme self confidence and ego, if right, or total deflation and/or. deflecting blame, respectively. I’ve dealt with this kind of thing a lot and that’s how I read generally big-headded antagonistic players. For the record, I’m writing this before looking at a single post of his, and this rule of thumb will be how I approach this case in general.

And reading his EoD I see… no conviction. At all. He was around mere minutes before EoD and he didn’t seem to care at all about that wagons. He was on a vanity wagon for christ’s sake, and instead of reacting at all to what happened at EoD, he instead just went ahead with his JOAT cover plan and didn’t react at all to wagons.

With someone who so spitefully antagonizes someone like leafia, I do not understand why he didn’t seem to care about the end of day wagons. Especially when he himself was one of them near the end of the day.

@Moleland

This is my thinking for the two main wagons yesterday

@Arete

|ash4fun|Elephas, Sulit, an_gorta_pratai, Flameo|4/8|

|an_gorta_pratai|ash4fun, CatLover, Wiisp|

this is the extent of his talking about the end of the day. It’s just… not there. If he townreads both wagons (and himself, obviously) why did he make no effort to change the EoD gamestate! Right now, it feels like he is a mole hiding underground, afraid of sticking his nose out there at all!

He feels super passive after the first few posts. I do not like it at all. This ISO lacks any conviction or any sort of desire to solve. It just feels like he’s along for the ride and after reading this I think I want to boot him off.

Conclusion:

I would expect a player like him, if town, to have convictions behind his pushes and supreme confidence come EoD. Here, his posts feel super passive and afraid to stick his neck out there. Probably my top mafia candidate at the moment!

da burial

@CatLover

The majority of Vulgard’s posts are done with super well-thought-out reasons, that make a lot of sense and feels like he believes them.

My read on him is this: I really want to call him obvious villager, lock villager even if you wanted to get hyperbolic, but I feel really unwell calling him this because of some of his posts.

I’m not sure if I should slot him in my top top towncore slot or not. I’m really close to doing it, I think, but I want to talk about this read in detail with others before I make this call due to my paranoia.

Someone please talk to me about this read. It’s my most conflicted one yet and very important to solve. As things stand, however, I don’t think i’ll ever vote him today.

hm ok

@CatLover

I’m super drained from this day’s work of casing and ISOing, those things are a lot of work and i’ve had a very busy day on top of that.

I haven’t ISO’d Centuries or CallMeIo, who i’ve wanted to take a look at, but I don’t think i’ll have the will today.

I’ve read over thread a couple of times anyway, and feel educated enough to cast a vote at EoD when the time comes.

They never ISO’d me

@CatLover

His posts against Wiisp are shallow and devoid of reasoning. There is nothing he’s latched on to, it feels like there’s nothing he can come up with but wants to push Wiisp anyways, which leads to him using shallow and likely fabricated reasoning.

was it wvw w wisp

[Centuries]

I think Wazza is just the JOAT and healed you tbh

[Vulgard]

Ways I could envision Intensify town are dumb stuff like “a wolfteam with PK/Intensify doesn’t come up with the idea of having PK claim JOAT” or “a wolfteam with PK/Intensify doesn’t realize the consequences of bussing PK and letting Flameo live.”

[Vulgard]

But even that point is moot because Wisp/CatLover could’ve discussed this before they replaced in.

[Centuries]

I think Sulit looks townie from Cat D1

[Vulgard]

I think I’m okay with that.

[Centuries]

So does Leafia

unless Leafia likes hardcore w/w

[Centuries]

Centuries
Vulgard
Sulit
Wazza
Leafia

–

Io/Intensify

[Vulgard]

The only reason I’m seeing Centuries!wolf as possible is because I might be getting pocketed, or I already have been.

[Vulgard]

Io is obvious town, please. A wolf’s play is never an incoherent mess like this.

[Centuries]

Well then it’s Intensify

[Vulgard]

Imagine if this is the solve.
Who needs 7 players when you just have two.

[Centuries]

In a world where scum cat never iso’s me when im town

they probably dont iso town io either o_O

[Centuries]

If Wisp scum that means Cat didn’t even try to towncase him

[Vulgard]

I agree that sulit looks really good based on CatLover spew.
Namely, the fact sulit is CatLover’s first townread backed up by extensive reasoning. From my experience, wolves almost never do this with partners because they don’t want to align themselves so hard so early.

@CatLover

What is this post actually trying to accomplish? “Could they both be groupscum? Possibly. Could they both be town? Also possible.”. What does that actually say about our alignments? How does a post like this help to advance the gamestate?

Unless this is some sort of read where you think sulit and I are aligned, I see no reason for this post to exist.

This about Leafia also makes Leafia look good.

[Centuries]

I think seeing how CatLover played around Mole

they dont do the same thing with their second scummate

probably in me/io/wisp