[VFM] JoaT^2 - (6/15) - 😹 Pirates (Town) Win!

[Elephas]

Hm.

I suppose one more won’t harm anyone.

/vote Moleland @DatBird

[Leafia]

Hmmm, I see. This is an interesting read. Thanks.

[Flameo]

That was eery. Best bird.

[Leafia]

@Elephas

@Leafia

Here you even admit that I could be right and Elephas never listed that as a possibility which leads me to think that he’s possibly trying to hide the fact that the wolves are trying to do just that.

I never said you were a wolf. I said that I cannot comprehend your thought-process, and I don’t believe that you believe in parts of your read on me. That can come from a wolf or a villager.
In fact, (in kind words), I’m more inclined to believe that your horrible case and push on me comes from a not-so-fantastic member of the town, rather than a wolf pushing agenda.

Hmmm, maybe I misjudged you and if I did, I’m sorry. The only question is who should be in the consensus towncore?

[Flameo]

@Flameo

I think the whole NK analysis at the start of day is a trap that some players have fallen into and others are abusing. I’ll be in the “NK analysis should be a supplement to reads, not the sole or even foundational base of a read” camp. I could probably make up a scenario using Katze’s posts to scumread every single one of the other players alive, if it was just using NK analysis.

Having said this, the only thing I took as noteworthy myself from the ISO was a heavy scumread on Io. This obviously plays into Io’s motivation to discrediting any potential NKA on Katze as a frame.

[CatLover]

It just hasn’t been my priority at the moment. I’m working on ISOing the slots I am unsure about and am hoping to get that done by about 2020-07-31T00:00:00Z.

After that, I’ll go more in-depth on an_gorta, but I would like a little bit of time to sort out my thoughts. I’ve been somewhat busy and scrapped my earlier ISOs because I was displeased with them but I should be able to get the ISOs finished before then and spend the remaining time I have discussing who exactly I would like my vote to be on.

As for your response to my Flameo case, I feel like you are calling my Flowchart performative. I feel like you are really discrediting it’s merit. I wanted to explain my thought process and really get in to the shoes of someone else, and a chart usually helps me do that! I originally did not intend to make it a chart, and just a general paragraph on what I thought Flameo’s thought process is, but I like charts, and find them helpful . I just thought it would be a good way for people to easily see my thought process. I was actually fairly proud of myself for making that.

I explained why I thought Flameo’s questioning of posts was town-indicative, and if you read my chart, you might just be able to see that! It’s not just that Flameo had been asking questions, it’s that the way she did so felt both fair and diligent. Usually asking questions is only lightly alignment indicative, but I felt that there was a process there that made her pushes much more in good faith.

@Elephas

May I ask who else you are townreading by this logic?

Nobody else right now for this specifically, as this process was specific to Flameo!

What actually feels like padding? I don’t like to make posts without a purpose, I am the opposite of someone who likes to pad posts. With quotes, please, would be preferred, as I find it shocking that you think I have been padding my posts when, (regardless of alignment for me), I do not pad my posts and try to make things as deliberate as possible.

[Flameo]

I think I am comfortorable with a towncore of for now at least with

Leafia, Wisp, me, SirDerpsAlot.

I’m considering Elephas and Sulit for this, but they still have some asterisks that I need to work out.

(Centuries has left my radar for a bit as well, will doublecheck that one too)

[Wisp]

Mole is certain that I am a wolf but not voting me, I don’t get it

Like that is easily the thing I hate the most about that slot

[CatLover]

I feel like people are just mafia-reading me for my playstyle, and not the content of my posts. I am someone who enjoys making longer cases and ISOs, as well as charts and the sorts. I try to get my bearings earlier in the day and then make some much stronger pushes near EoD, where it matters much more~

I have fallen into the nasty habit of just responding to pings at myself, so I am going to work on finishing the ISOs of:

Wazza
Centuries
Vulgard
CallMeIo
Moleland

I’ll check back after I do each individual one and ask for thoughts before going to the next. It’s just how I like to do things. If you do not like that, I am sorry, but I am not going to alter my preferred method of solving simply because you do not like it!

[Flameo]

Oh Centuries can join my towncore.

[SirDerpsAlot]

@Flameo

@SirDerpsAlot

I did the ISO to build a case on why I think youre a wolf so

@SirDerpsAlot

Doesn’t the shortness of your ISO kind of confirm that Wiisp is townier then considering their post volume

No I just got bored because I don’t like ISOs lol

[Flameo]

@Centuries

@CatLover

I mean, when you say that reads “don’t count”, to me it usually means they are just nullified! That’s what something not counting means! I am not trying to twist your words, I believe that is just the definition of the term! I apologize if it seemed that way, but I stand by my point that you saying that your earlier reads do not count feels like you are publicly devaluing them, consciously or not, to a level where I question why you would make them in the first place if you had planned to override them with larger reads later.

If the argument is

Ash saying their reads don’t count because they don’t come from giga ISOs of each and every player which is what I understand

then I think it’s V ash

@Centuries

/vote Kat

Slamming my vote here atm trying to think about yeet candidates

@Centuries

gimme a ash read or perish

@Centuries

@ash4fun

• Centuries - Nullscum - Couple of good interactions, not a ton of analysis. Maybe it’s a bit early to expect it anyways. Not deathtunneling townie like homestuck. Has a readslist but besides that seems to be going after the “easy” questions for scum ie. explaining leafia behavior but not really trying to read her.

@ash4fun

• sulit - Townlean - I feel like the main difference between here and DGADT is that sulit was just kinda generally suspicious of everything in that game. I’m not seeing any of that here. Also a bit more engagement. But seriously half of their iso is one word…

@ash4fun

• ash4fun - Town - I’m not even gonna joke that I’m obvtown, ik my posts have been super underwhelming so far. I’m probably not gonna be able to keep up at one point or another, but I’m trying to contribute as best I can with everything that’s going on.

yikes!

@Centuries

@ash4fun

Couple of good interactions

ok

@ash4fun

not a ton of analysis

ok

@ash4fun

. Maybe it’s a bit early to expect it anyways

ok

@ash4fun

Not deathtunneling townie like homestuck

ok

@ash4fun

Has a readslist but besides that seems to be going after the “easy” questions for scum ie. explaining leafia behavior but not really trying to read her.

ok but no

@ash4fun

Nullscum

what

how does that amount to that

@Centuries

@ash4fun

• Flameo - Townlean - I feel like I can see where their head’s at. Pretty questioning approach to solving, I like that.

@ash4fun

• katze - Townread - A fair bit of reasonable takes. Not a ton of effort until #783. After that point I can read their progressions a lot better.

@ash4fun

• CatLover - Townread - As I found in my standalone iso of her, there’s a lot of analysis and solving, and it all seems very reasonable. (ie. not being forced into certain conclusions)

nah BUT

@Centuries

@ash4fun

• SirDerpsALot - Nulltown - Quite a few of these posts look low-effort, and that makes them look a bit agenda-y. But there’s other posts that just don’t make as much sense from scum, as well as a healthy bit of analysis later on. tbh this one could go either way.

• Wazza - Scumread - There’s literally nothing here. And by literally nothing I mean a floating TR of sulit and otherwise sheeping vulgard. Certainly seems uninterested in the game (and has said as much). Potential for easy association reads but Im not gonna mess with that until a flip.
• Centuries - Nullscum - Couple of good interactions, not a ton of analysis. Maybe it’s a bit early to expect it anyways. Not deathtunneling townie like homestuck. Has a readslist but besides that seems to be going after the “easy” questions for scum ie. explaining leafia behavior but not really trying to read her.
• CatLover - Townread - As I found in my standalone iso of her, there’s a lot of analysis and solving, and it all seems very reasonable. (ie. not being forced into certain conclusions)
• Vulgard - Scumlean - A ton of energy even out of the gate. Lots of posts and opinions, which I sorta like. But also, the reasoning behind a lot of this stuff seems kinda lacking to me. Idk but a fair bit makes more sense to me from scum than from town.
• an_gorta_pratai - Null -

@an_gorta_pratai

I will be on more later, as I am very tired

boom iso’d

• sulit - Townlean - I feel like the main difference between here and DGADT is that sulit was just kinda generally suspicious of everything in that game. I’m not seeing any of that here. Also a bit more engagement. But seriously half of their iso is one word…
• CallMeIo - Nullscum - A lot of what I read seemed to me like publicly rating other people’s actions, more than actually trying to develop reads. Although a lot of that might be coming from the copious exclamations.
• Elephas - Townread - I’m liking their progressions a lot. Their reasoning is pretty clear to me in what they’re saying and it makes sense. They have some good solvey energy. kind of how I wish I could be playing if I had more time
• Leafia - Townlean - They seem to be having Objectively Better Townplay™ than what I remember from Homestuck. I really like the change, my only issue is I can’t decide between “townier than towngame means town” and “deviation from towngame means scum”. Probably the former tbh.
• Moleland - Scumread - This one might be worth a post of its own, but there’s quite a bit going on here. There’s no solving to speak of–if something pings them they call it scummy and move on, rather than any sort of followup or attempt to understand. Openly provoking and shading leafia.
• ash4fun - Town - I’m not even gonna joke that I’m obvtown, ik my posts have been super underwhelming so far. I’m probably not gonna be able to keep up at one point or another, but I’m trying to contribute as best I can with everything that’s going on.
• katze - Townread - A fair bit of reasonable takes. Not a ton of effort until #783. After that point I can read their progressions a lot better.
• Wisp - Scumlean - There’s a lot of free opinions floating about. I feel like a lot of what they’ve done could easily be tmireads or parroting town consensus. Nothing really jumps out to me as towny in any way.
• Flameo - Townlean - I feel like I can see where their head’s at. Pretty questioning approach to solving, I like that.

I hate how these are either

flip floppy as hell

or really lazy just TRing players who appear to be solving

@Centuries

goodbye katze wagon

/vote Ash

is ash vote self pres or just actual scumhunting

@Centuries

@ash4fun

Also I should probably do something with my vote

/vote Moleland

@ash4fun

• Moleland - Scumread - This one might be worth a post of its own, but there’s quite a bit going on here. There’s no solving to speak of–if something pings them they call it scummy and move on, rather than any sort of followup or attempt to understand. Openly provoking and shading leafia.

hmh

[quote=“ash4fun, post:1256, topic:83078, full:true”]

[quote=“Elephas, post:1073, topic:83078”]

@ash4fun

SirDerpsALot - Nulltown - Quite a few of these posts look low-effort, and that makes them look a bit agenda-y. But there’s other posts that just don’t make as much sense from scum , as well as a healthy bit of analysis later on. tbh this one could go either way.
[/quote]

@ash4fun

Vulgard - Scumlean - A ton of energy even out of the gate. Lots of posts and opinions, which I sorta like. But also, the reasoning behind a lot of this stuff seems kinda lacking to me. Idk but a fair bit makes more sense to me from scum than from town .

@ash4fun

Wisp - Scumlean - There’s a lot of free opinions floating about. I feel like a lot of what they’ve done could easily be tmireads or parroting town consensus . Nothing really jumps out to me as towny in any way.

Please provide examples of the bolded statements above.
I find it interesting that you say Wisp is parroting town consensus when they were the only person to vote or suspect me. If anything, people parroted them .

I would also like you to explain why you townread me, CatLover, and Flameo for solving? Solving in itself should not be considered alignment-indicative, as strong wolves are able to have “solvey energy.” I’d like you to focus on the how and why rather than the what .

“makes more sense as town/scum” is ig a buzzword for gutread for me.

For derps:

[quote=“SirDerpsAlot, post:253, topic:83078”]

@Wisp

We missed about the same, so idk

Looks like molo? Is a train
Katze is open wolfing

I’m stuck at work
[/quote]

Wisp and mole Probabaly not W/W for this TBH

@SirDerpsAlot

Catlover town

@SirDerpsAlot

@Flameo

I don’t like being ignored, so I’ll vote you for that.

/vote Moleland
[/quote]

Does scum do this?

Possible but ehh

Flameo light town read for now

I feel like scum here would feel more driven to flesh out their reads, and make sure they can’t be faulted for what they’re doing. Derps is just evaluating people without really looking at anyone else.

@Vulgard

Elephas is probably town based on their attitude and content thus far. There is enough meat there, and a villagery confidence underneath, that I’m willing to throw a townread there.

We’ll see how their progression changes.

idk but reading this feels more like “buying good play”/setting up future sr, than actually solving.

Tbh reading vulgard again he actually feels a lot better. I remember that post pinged me but the other stuff is actually pretty good.

@Wisp

I get nervous energy I guess

Sulit is probably town here

@Wisp

Wazza talked, I wonder which scum buddy pinged him?

on a real note, I am not interested in voting him this early based on that meta, its a wasted vote, and I will see if he keeps up as the day goes on

Mole is a wolf lean for [redacted] reasons

@Wisp

Wazza’s first 6 posts don’t really say anything AI, but like if he was to keep that up, he would definitely go down into the “He might actually be a wolf” territory

These are the first few posts I could find with serious, non-rvs reads. They just seem to me like they were made up on the spot to look reasonable–I don’t see any progression toward them.

@Wisp

I have a wolf PoE of like

Elephas/Mole/Flameo, dont know if that makes sense as a team, but on an individual level they all bring posts that I hate

This one especially pings me as rule-of-threes, especialy since I tr 2 and sr 1.

@Centuries

/unvote

i like it better
maybe?

They spend a lot of day 1 contemplating Ash’ slot. Eventually they unvote and weakly push another wagon, because they are kind of unsure of who to push now.

@Centuries

kinda mad at myself i didnt stay awake / fight more for ash’s life

he did alright posts near eod and i said i liked them and proceeded to unvote

ehh

The following day they feel some regret for not pushing their Ash townread further. This reads as genuine to me.

[Wazza]

Yeah sorry my guy, brother’s birthday and I wanted to get some sleep, only got around 4 hours. I’ll do stuff in around 30 mins at most.

[Flameo]

@SirDerpsAlot

They seem to be taking all claims etc at face value which IMO is wolf AI
In this case an attempted push on an ‘openwolfer’ of which this entire push was just fucking weird and Wiisp was acting like they’ve never played with someone whos memes before.

I think it’s just an annoyance at people that meme like that, because it’s inherently anti town. Open wolving is just shitting on the premise of the game because “haha it is funny”. I think Wiisp shares this sentiment.

@SirDerpsAlot

@Wisp

That’s right I forgot this is the general vibe of FoL, so I guess I should ignore it, but since I have no time to figure out where to go, and I am busy, I’ll just leave my vote

acknowledges its a meme and most likely NAI but still decides to leave their vote regardless.

Can you not taste the annoyance in the first sentence?

@SirDerpsAlot

@Wisp

Honestly I’d give Centuries and Vulgard town leans just for calling me town

this reads as a pocket attempt to me

I think this calls out some of their own bias in order to own it. Certain players naturally scumread their scumreaders and townread their townreaders. (I fall in this category). I don’t think it applies to everyone.

@SirDerpsAlot

@Wisp

I have a wolf PoE of like

Elephas/Mole/Flameo,

hate this PoE as I’m pretty sure its all town

bad reads arent necessarily wolf AI but its not a good thing either

I think they glossed too much over me and retracted that read on me later, so I can address why I was there.

This might look like I’m defending them too much towards you, but I’d like for a towncore idea to work and hope you see some merit in these points.

[Flameo]

@an_gorta_pratai

Can you please push someone independently? You’ve spend all of today defending.

[Flameo]

I reread Elephas now and they are fine on a don’t want to lynch today kind of scale. Sulit will stay an asterisk until they show otherwise I suppose.

[Flameo]

Lynch pool is probably Vulgard/Gorta/Io/Mole/Wazza

[CatLover]

Casing on Wazza:

The first half of this posting is something that I don’t think is alignment indicative. This general deflated “I hate this game, just kill me already” can and has come from different alignments. Trying to read in to those types of posts just leads to cherrypicking quotes to fit what you think, and confirmation bias. I’ll admit I did try to read in to it heavily earlier but at this point I think the best way to handle his posts about hating that he randed VT is just to ignore them or at the very least admit there’s not much to be gleaned from them, and just focus on the posts of his I can find that don’t relate to that.

---

@Wazza

@sulit

I haven’t really seen the above yet and the fact he used the same argument he did as Replay, “I don’t want to post reads till asked because my reads are shit,”

Because this is a genuine argument. I play as scum the way I play as Town.

One thing I’ve found in general is, regardless of the alignment of the person posting this, they will usually believe it is true. Not that it is- but he will usually think he has no differences at all between his Town and Mafia games. I have no interest in looking at his past games, so I do not care if there are tonal differences between the two, but this mindset may be important later.

He approached the wall that the above quoted post is in in a way that I have struggled to interpret but I have come to the conclusion that Wazza and Sulit is t/w. I’ve mulled over this wall for about 10-15 minutes and this is the conclusion i’ve come.

Summary

@Wazza

Honestly I feel like she is Town but she’s spiting for the Replay/Venus thing back in that game.

@sulit

As town Wazza is way more aggressive and active and he is COMFORTABLE IN THE THREAD.

This is a fair point, I’ll give you that. But I can counter it based on the fact that I’m Vanilla Town.

@sulit

Wazza as town is pretty obvious in my opinion because it’s pretty easy to see when he actually believes in his reads or just chill I’m the thread tbh.

I gave up believing in my reads after FoL 29 and the alt game, even if I was Mafia. Posting my reads just makes everyone suspects me so I completely give up on reads at this point. They’re stupid and when I try give my opinions I’m instantly suspected for it.

@sulit

I haven’t really seen the above yet and the fact he used the same argument he did as Replay, “I don’t want to post reads till asked because my reads are shit,”

Because this is a genuine argument. I play as scum the way I play as Town.

@sulit

It’s also sucky you’re using the anon game to meta read me as I purposely tried to play different and tried out different methods to read people. I specifically played on an alt because I don’t want to be held to that standard of play in normal games.

I think I can use it to state that you’re using a salt read.

@sulit

Earlier in the game he seemed kinda jumpy and posts didn’t lead much if anywhere

Explain?

@sulit

Later all he did was argue with me tbh. He forgot about the game even though he’d posted earlier

Because you were pushing me so I returned the favour.

@sulit

Also said he read the thread but no reads except me scum for pushing him ):

I have more reads, but once again, everyone fucking scumreads me for my opinions so I’m not posting them.

Sorry about the late response, I took a ‘nap’ and woke up 9 hours and a half later.

I have a lot of mixed feelings from this wall, but I have ascertained a few things from it that I believe to be telling. I think that, in this wall, he is approaching this wall from the mindset that sulit is town. He says so at the beginning and the way his reads and posts are formulated makes me think that he had genuinely approached this from the mindset that sulit is town. This could mean a few worlds (Wazza wolf and is TMIing sulit town, Wazza town and is townreading sulit), but it distinctly does not feel like it’s from somebody who has TMI on sulit being mafia. Therefore I think that it is not w/w.

I can go into further detail on the posts that made me specifically think he does not have TMI on wolf!sulit, but to make it more concise i’m just putting the general reasoning here.

---

He ended up voting and pushing CallMeIo later (I know he said he was not going to make reads, but I am not going to fault him for going back on that nor do I think it’s inherently wolfy as I can see the mindset of wanted to play the game as town even if you said earlier you weren’t)

I like how he stands his ground when CallMeIo pushed him, specifically the way he attacked him for his perceived poor arguments. There was focused aggression when he was drilling Io that made me feel like this was more than pushing Io for more than just pushing him. Posts like these:

Summary

@Wazza

Io, you haven’t explained why the wagon looks unpure.

@Wazza

@CallMeIo

You don’t even acknowledge my reasoning

I acknowledge your lack of reasoning, if that’s what you want me to say.

@Wazza

@CallMeIo

Seems to me like you just desperately wanted me to changed my mind about Ash.

Desperately? I don’t even scumread Ash, nor care about his wagon. I was bringing up a point and playing Devil’s Advocate.

@Wazza

Yeah I want you voted since 5 times you’ve been asked to explain why the Ash wagon is unpure and 5 times you have ignored the question.

@Wazza

I can’t even see this argument coming from Town. Your reasoning makes absolutely no sense, not to mention you constantly ignored the people asking about your point, and then when asked about it, you change your complete mind on it and state something completely unrelated and something that wouldn’t matter with it. It seems more like a scum saving a fellow scum, but shrug.

@Wazza

@CallMeIo

Since when is Mole inactive?

…When did I state Mole was inactive? I was responding to Centuries who stated you were pushing on inactives.

@Wazza

@CallMeIo

Seems to me like your defending him.

Literally didn’t mention Mole at all.

@Wazza

@CallMeIo

But that’s the only person I’m pushing.

You’re legit pushing me, you literally just- you know what, I quit, I’m too tired for this shit today.

@Wazza

You hurt my head when you contradict yourself.

Feel like he is attacking Io with a purpose behind it and that purpose being to highlight hypocrisy. It could be just because I genuinely do think the things he highlighted are good things to point out but but I liked the way he did it, the additude he did it with, and what he actually did end up accomplishing.

My only reservation on this point is that he proceeded this whole thing with a vote (before really getting in to the meat and potatoes of the contradictions) and there is a world where he only started looking for things that looked bad after he decided he wanted to push Io but I still appreciated the push itself and thought it was good even if there’s a chance it was preplanned.

---

Conclusion:

I lightly town read Wazza for his push and aggression on CallMeIo near the end of his ISO, and do not think he is ever w/w with sulit.

[Wisp]

I don’t get why I shouldn’t take claims at face value, whether Wolfie or PR claiming, I expect people to not lie or unnecessarily FPS

I’ve seen people claim their wolf role in an open setup, and flip wolf and that exact role…

And for someone like Lo to hard push a thunderdome, and not be [redacted] will honestly blow my mind

[Flameo]

I like this post enough for me to remove Wazza from lynch pool… I don’t think they should be far from it however. Two recent inactivity apologies give me some alarm bells.

@Wazza

Good Afternoon, I am in pain so I’ll be back soon but I’m just stating I will do things today instead of doing nothing.

@Wazza

Yeah sorry my guy, brother’s birthday and I wanted to get some sleep, only got around 4 hours. I’ll do stuff in around 30 mins at most.

I will be optimistic and hope they swiftly change my mind today.

So lynch pool: Mole/Vulgard/Io/Gorta