Why does King have limited guards?

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

First of all I would like to start by saying my argument does not apply to SELF guards. I get why those are limited.

With every other defensive Ability that targets Someone else you can use it unlimited times. The Kings guards are just a regular Support Ability that gives someone night Immunity. This isn’t stronger than a heal or a sacrifice and is often weaker than both. The only thing that a guard protects agenced that a heal does not is a trap and even there the reaper has gather darkness. Beyond that there are meny things that heal protects against that guard does not: Poison/Bleed, Bear, Sacrifice (the attacker not the Knight) ect…

So it definitely isn’t OP to have guards infinite use. So why don’t they? Infact even if it’s OP for a regular king that could be the thing that seperates the starting king from the others.

Note: The King would still only be able to self guard 3 or 4 times. Otherwise it would be OP.

#2

I’d be in favor of starting king having unlimited other guards, maybe 1-2 self guards. If it were possible to get rid of his dominate the first half of the game investigative ability. However that ability can’t go away without public outcry for the first few days, and the dev’s will respond to it as we’ve seen… so… king is strong enough as he is.

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#3

I think the public outcry might actually be legit. And not because the king needs it but because every critical Ability needs to be guarenteed.

Critical Ability’s: Convert, Evil Kill, Neutral Kill, Town night Kill, Defend and Alignment check.

Right now that is:

Convert: MM/CL
EKill: Assassin/CL
NKill: The NK’S
TKill: Prince
Defend: King
Cop: King

As you can see removing the Ally’s Ability leaves a hole in that list. Luckily the solution is simple and it was what was used in beta: Make there always be a minimum of 1 sheriff/paladin.

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#4

It anyone wants to know where I got that list then here is the reasoning:

1: This is a social deduction game. You need an informed minority and an uninformed majority. The informed minority needs a way to make progress in the game thus: EKill is required.

2: The uninformed majority needs to have a basis for accusing someone. That doesn’t mean that you need to be a cop to accuse but it does mean that one needs to exist hence: Alignment checker AKA Cop

3: Beyond that the cop can never out who he is because he would be immediately killed. If someone can save people from attacks then you have a reason to speak up this: Defender is required

4: This game is not a normal game of mafia. Conversion is a core mechanic to this game thus: Converter

5: At this point the evils are making progress faster than they can be stopped. 1 KPD might not be enough and 2 trials is OP thus: TKill. This also gives people more reason to claim as evil before you have been asked.

6: With all of this in play the game is currently solvable by at least one side. A combination of claims by the right classes and protections from defenders will either lead to a guarenteed town win or won’t be enough to stop a guarenteed Mafia win. If there is an NK that can and needs to kill both sides then you would need to deal with that first. An independent killer can often accomplish the same task sometimes but tends to be OP for the evils thus: Nkiller.

#5

They have been talks around bringing old Sheriff/Paladin back

And no, Cop is not necessary

#6

Yeah I don’t mind the minimum 1 sheriff/pali concept. The thing I hate about the king being the one to have it, is he’s incontestable. Typically in all social deduction games, you get accused, you can try and place doubt on your accuser. Maybe he’s scorned etc… and the earlier in the game that accusation comes out the worse it is.

I’d personally accept the comprimise of neutrals appearing as BD to the king as well. In the event that any attempt to remove kings investigative power is going to be reverted.

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#7

yeah guys let’s make this social class, who has defensive ability for some reason, also be a support class

#8

If you are referring to king then I would like to point out that he is special not social.

#9

the idea of king was built around being a vote bot who could get the game going, not a knight

#10

He isn’t a knight. Guards don’t kill.

#11

exactly, they don’t kill the king either so it is better then knight if unlimited

#12

That’s debatable. And even if you are right (I don’t think you are) the phys and Alch are still better by far for the reasons listed in the OP. Remember that sacrifice is the one form of defense that cannot be bypassed by any night Ability not counting prince

#13

reaper can expend souls

#14

That doesn’t bypass sacrifice. It does bypass guard.

#15

no, if knight is on reaper target he just heals himself with the souls

#16

But the attacked person survives

#17

and the knight dies, and the reaper lives

#18

Yes we know. The sacrifice was not bypassed however as the (probably more important) target survives.

#19

Plus it’s not like Heal and Guard are much better here. Guard can be bypassed with gather darkness and Healing is ignored anyway.

#20

If like to see the guard incorporate an investigation of sorts. Only give feedback if evil.

King guards 3. After night resolves king gets a message “guards refused to guard 3”

3 was unseen so it wouldn’t guard.

It can be more general too. Let it show the guarded player was investigative. That’s all they need to know amyways. It won’t say anything else. Not evil or neutral.