Why Fool is a Mistake

This is long overdue. If you search “@orangeandblack5 fool”, you can see that I have spoken out against the Fool, both in FoL and ToL, many times over the past year. However, I always kind of hoped that we’d be able to somehow manage having them in FoL with no real issues. If nothing else, FoL 11 has shown me that this is not the case.

First off, Fool is insanely easy. Just look at Sketch. Although I really do like and respect him, he is not afraid to use cheeky tactics in pursuit of a win (just look at his meta “Maid-slip” in his first game), and in FoL 11 he won as a Fool by doing literally nothing. He just didn’t post. This inactivity is unlike him, and with no better target he was the obvious lynch choice. There was no way anybody could read him as a Fool, because he basically didn’t even play. Yet he got himself lynched and a win. This is essentially ususal. Of the 6 games a Fool has spawned in so far, they have only lost one game, and in that game they were randomly killed Night 1. They have won every other game, giving them what I believe is the highest FoL winrate at over 83%. That’s way too high, and it stems from the fact that convincing people to lynch you is really easy when you have several days to do it, a factor that is only helped by the trial clock not pausing the day timer. When somebody is voted up in FoL, voting them innocent often doesn’t leave you enough time to change targets, so an execution is much more likely to be the best option. This all means that Fool is way too easy for FoL.

In addition, the entire purpose of the Fool is really nullified in a forum game like FoL. Although they would probably be better off without a Fool or Jester, games like ToS, ToL, and SC2M have this role to provide a crutch to new and/or bad players. By making scummy actions potentially come from a Fool/Jester, these games allow poor play to go unpunished due to fear. This is inherently a bastard mechanic; punishing the Town for lynching somebody who is scum goes against their entire purpose, as lynches are the Town’s only true way of eliminating their enemies. In a forum game like FoL, however, the extended timer and discussion put much less pressure on the scum to quickly react to things, which means that there should be no need for this crutch whatsoever. If a scum player messes up in FoL, they shouldn’t be saved by the fear of a Fool.

This is made worse by the fact that the punishment for lynching a Fool is absolutely aggravating. Being unable to lynch people for two days grinds the pacing of the game to a halt for 10 entire days. 240 hours is a long time, and to make pretty much every BD unable to do anything of real value during this time is ridiculous. Having no ability to push people that are scummy pulls you out of the experience of playing the game, and it can be really hard to get re-invested after a game wastes your time for more than an entire week.

Although there are many more points I could make, given the time, I think that I’ve covered the main issues with the Fool here in FoL. This bastard role has no place in a forum game, and pretty much every other FM site on the internet has reached that conclusion. Talk to somebody from MafiaScum, Town of Salem FM, or Mafia Universe, and you will hear nothing but criticism for the Jester/Fool, for good reason. I believe it is high time we stop lagging behind the rest of FM on this particular issue.

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Very support.

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Just wanted to throw out that the new class added the Machist (I think I spelled that Wrong but whatever) is terrible for Basically the same reason

personally i abbreviate the masochist as the masch

ok great but you agree that he’s kinda stupid?

I actually have an idea.

Like the scorned the fool serves the purpose of giving a player a reason to make bold lies. Unlike the fool however the scorned is incentivized to make the lie believable. So while the fool does achieve its purpose in that regard the scorned will always do it better. My suggestion would be to remove the fool but make scorned not unique.

Also remove the masch. He’s just stupid

Hmm fool is… hmm… I like playing the fool first and foremost. And I dont like at all that you can get a 100% certain hit with Allies on unseen/cult. There is nothing deductive about that, the Fool kind of midigates that. However I prefer having a Guaranteed Scorned and a removal of the Fool. As they both achieve the same but Scorned is more interesting in that aspect.

Yep. Fool shuts the game down hard, and saps everybody’s attention and interest in the game since lynching is ground to a halt.

If Fool were not to be removed entirely, it should AT LEAST have no penalty to BD for getting lynched. Wasting a day’s lynch is about bad enough. Every time the Fool has been lynched BD has been crushed.

I think people enjoy playing the Fool/Jester (myself included) because it is a sigh of relief when you roll it – you don’t need to worry about seeming scummy and you can say whatever you want and get rewarded for it. There’s very few ways to BD to actually remove Fools without great risk to their Prince or Knight. Hunter, admittedly, is the best tool to remove Fools from the game, but they don’t always spawn.

But more eminently, Fool hangings make BD feel like they’ve already lost, and everybody’s investment in the game diminishes significantly.

Whatever are you talking about? I was simply admiring Jammy’s class idea :smirk:

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Copying @Vandalay’s post without asking first:

I gotta agree on several levels.

  1. yeah you are 100% on target with the concept. Fool itself is effectively made to be a “pretend to be a really crappy evil class", which while it is very fun to play as, it does fully punish skilled play will be automatically deleted in many ways.

  2. IMO the mere existance of a fool, throws the entire notion of gamethrowing as a punishable offense out the window. Oh you made no attempt to even try to cover yourself against a paper thin accusation as MM, sure I did I tried to look like a fool, only a fool wouldn’t have tried there.

  3. While I think this should have no bearing on real serious play, I’ve seen a few changes implimented under the justification that “BD think it’s a good idea to pretend to be fool, then act supprised when wolfed, princed or killing a knight”. If that is ample justification for tweaking things… maybe the easiest tweak is the most obvious one?

I suspect he deleted it once he realized this was a FoL post and not a ToL one, but what he didn’t expect is that most of this is also the exact argument I would make if I thought there was a chance it might also be canned from ToL. It really should be, I just find it very unlikely.

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While I’m not sure that last statement is accurate, your first assessment is actually pretty close to reality.

However, many FM games with a Jester actually reward the Town upon their lynch to make up for the wasted time.

And while no punishment would be much better than current, what’s even the point? It would be better to just remove it entirely.

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Actually, the only time the Fool didn’t win was in FoL 3. Only way that I remembered it. The fact that it was the first ever Mercenary win as well.

But yeah, 240 hours to wait after a Fool gets executed is kinda useless. When I was dead, even I thought something was entirely wrong. Sketch claims to have read the posts and not interacted, and yet he was not prodded or replaced. We need to eliminate the silent Fool meta and actually get a more active Fool for starters, or also change the times.

There is also currently a poll going on @orangeandblack5, which you might wish to link in here so more forum players and those interested in joining in the future has a chance to determine whether or not the Fool should be changed slightly.

Changed slightly isn’t enough.

Fool is terrible in all levels. if you dont exe them then you can either do the following things

  1. Waste A Knight as Night on Them
  2. Waste a Killing Ability on them
  3. Attempt to ignore them but they 100% side with evils.
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The also other problem is that if you don’t execute the fool, and don’t have a Prince or Hunter to kill them - They can occupy a knight claim and stop themselves dying or Occupy the Sheriff/Paladin until you kill them to make them stop.

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Actually I did know we were in agreement on the stance of it in ToL itself. and yeah I don’t mind you bringing it back to life, just was afraid I was poking my head in the wrong place, as I don’t know FoL at all lol.

You should play :slight_smile:

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Join us.
Untitled drawing (1)

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