So let’s make this thing that actively hinders the BD’s actions, screws with its investigations, and can even make others say things they wouldn’t say, which is obviously and undeniably anti-BD, punish the BD when they use their only true and consistent method of eliminating their rivals to do just that.
If that isn’t backwards I don’t know what is.
Trollbox is too weak to really matter.
It definitely shouldn’t screw with investigations, just look at the title of the thread.
And of course, you can take out a Fool with a Knight, Prince, or even the King if you suspect them.
My biggest objection is Frame and nullifying the day phase.
But I’ll say once again that Fool isn’t a rival. It is most definitely harmful, but killing the Fool is not killing an enemy. You’d always kill an Assassin over a Fool. Fool is inconvenient, not trying to work against you.
Besides, it’s fun to play as, and it makes the BD more cautious, which isn’t a bad thing. Even it’s use as a crutch for new players ultimately makes the game more fun.
While the implementation may be sub optimal, the concept isn’t bad.
Fool has his place and he is fun. However a competitive game is not that place. If you consider ToL competitive or not is up to you.
Obviously not lmao
However, there’s a point where the “fun” factor of playing a role is negated by the anti-fun factor of playing against it
See Allies King, old ToS Spy, R6 Ela, etc.
Also Fool is literally more scum than ToS’s Jester lol
Stuff like this random guy’s Reddit post help make that point pretty strongly
https://amp.reddit.com/r/TownofSalemgame/comments/5jgrjp/hanging_jester_isnt_a_bad_thing_for_town/
But for real, it balances like a guaranteed mislynch and should be treated as such.
This is WHY fool isn’t good in a competitive setting. FoL is a great example. In ToL when no one is playing competitively when a fool is lynched people laugh it off and move on while the fool had a good time to get to that point.
However when people are playing competitively, what was earlier an unexpected surprise becomes a spanner in the works that you can’t do much about without wasting the princes time or hoping there is a knight/hunter. Plus the length of the day in FoL makes it even worse.
Basically in casual play there are far more no lynches which means that usually during that 1-2 days no one would have died anyway. In competitive play this is not true so that 1-2 days means a lot more which pushes it over the line.
Allies was a problem because you don’t “move on” from being dead. It was too impactful AND unfun to play against. If it was just 1 of those (like fool is in casual play) then it would be no big deal. However it wasn’t hence why it was removed. Order Execution is fine because it is fun to try and counter play it but it is still impactful enough to be powerful.
Back to the OP’s issue. The fool is needed in some games but not others. In a low skill environment scummy behavior is less likely to be caught so he needs frame in order to do his job. Scorned needs frame to do her job too (but unlike fool she is actually fun to counterplay AND to play as. So she works in a competitive setting) because sheriffs can be confirmed and evils need an explanation for a dead sheriff having a sus check on them and scorned is the answer.
As for mindwarp we could change it to a lingering frame and then it would accomplish a similar purpose as a scorned frame except:
A: You would need to already suspect an illusionist to counterplay it (this is a good thing. Illusionist is trying to cause mislynches not paranoia. Scorned is trying to cause paranoia. (I mean in terms of purpose in the game. Not what the player is trying to do with them))
B: The target is not arbitrary as the Illusionist doesn’t just have 2 targets.
And how would you know there is an illusionist?
If in a psychic game no one answers when you ask who was linked.
A good Scorned and Fool don’t need Frame to do their jobs. It’s a social class, their words should be the focus.
A good fool isn’t playing casually (and thus see oranges shpeel about how f and a good scorned has a job besides winning which is what she needs the frame for (aka she provides doubt to sheriff or obs peeks which can lead to the player being pardoned if they have sufficiently good logs)
As Sheriff or Pally the odds are 100 to 1 someone framed your target.
And you can just say your target is the MM or NK of they were checked.
This is irrelevant. The purpose of scorned having frame is for when it isn’t the scorned doing the accusing.
AKA: Scorned has frame for when there isn’t a scorned involved. Scorned might not need frame to win but an Assassin or MM need it to survive a dead sheriff with good logs.
Scorned is indeed much better than Fool, but even in casual play Fool still does nothing but hinder players from attempting to improve, and is therefore bad for the health of the community in the long-term.
Fool is a crutch for “Fools”. That crutch is needed for noobs but not for experienced players who don’t need these tools period because higher level play should include more sheriff fake claims and more scum reading attempts rather than lynches biased on a check. Scorned is still important even then to make it even more likely than it already should be. Fool is not.
However in low level play things are just different. His existence discourages meany strategy’s (that shouldn’t work anyway but might in noob games with noob scum) such as VFC and random lynching ect. Again not a problem when everyone knows what they are doing but in low level play it’s important.
While I agree with some things and disagree with others (It’s complete chaos in here), I still feel like you are acting like every player is super competitive and know what they’re doing. You have to consider every players’ PoV and how the changes will affect them. The majority of players are still relatively new/casual after all. I think while some minor changes would be nice, these hugs changes/reworks you’re thinking of is not fun, especially for a new player. Also I like living as a scorned helping the NK win, when otherwise they would’ve lost without me.
