Why we should replace/remove Retribution/Frame/Mindwarp

#1

Retribution

This is a problematic power on a unique class. It makes it impossible to get away with a claim, since even lynching an Innocent Hunter ensures the death of an evil.

There’s no good excuse to avoid getting lynched, and makes it harmful to your team to try to ensure your longevity during the day. I’d remove this entirely.

Frame/Mindwarp

There is no counter play to this power. You have no hint that your results were wrong, they just get screwed up. While it is a strong ability, it is rare and will just come out of no where and screw you over. It’s just a pure bastard mechanic, since it rarely succeeds.

If you want to make investigatives untrustworthy, the real answer is somehow tilting the odds in favor of the Scorned. It is the perfect way to make people suspicious of investigators, and you can try to read the person instead of having no way to determine if they are correct.

I’d replace these abilities with some other ones.

#2

Actually Night, Retribution fits the theme of Hunter well, and Occupy/Magic Barrier stops Framing and Mind Warping

#3

Balance > Lore

It’s so rare it’s irrelevant

#4

Okay you got me there, but let’s see how it goes with what others say

#5

Since when was framing a bastard mechanic

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#6

Since it rarely shows up.

And thus it is nigh impossible to predict.

How many games have you seen this take effect?

When it does it just screws over the BD

I’m describing a Bastard Mechanic as: “Something that lies to the player (Mindwarp/Frame) or changes how you play in ways that are hard to predict (Like if King was BD 99% of time, but 1% they were evil)”

#7

literally Framer is made to make evils be able to claim they were framed and fake claim easier. Bastard is fool and goes against what you should be doig (e.x. fool maing it harder to lynch scummy players)

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#8

I know. But

A) It comes up so rarely it doesn’t help

B) Scorned is a much more effective way to do this (by it’s goal, not by it’s frame power)

I’d argue it might be helpful to actually guarantee Scorned to give evils something to hide behind

#9

I’d say that scorned is trying to make people second guess the invest claim. Frame makes that apply to dead ones.

Illusionist however is more for the purpose of actually causing miss lynches rather than making the invests themselves paranoid.

Given that MB exists and is a perfectly valid and common type of counter play it isn’t a big deal at all.

Remember: It isn’t bastard if the game tells you it exists. (which it does. Bastard game play is when the CLASS CARD lies to you/hides things from you. The Illusionist does no such thing.)

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#10

That’s not the only thing that qualifies as bastard.

This is the definition I like:

Faraday: I don’t consider Jester bastard. It’s terrible but…not bastard. It goes against the fundementals of mafia I guess, in that lynching scummy people is good but eh. Maybe it’s borderline then. Suff like death miller is bastard. Basically anything where you explicitly lie to the players. Cult maybe for alignment changing? (If so then mentor is obviously bastard too). Voteless isn’t bastard, just fucking stupid. So my list is fairly short. People just throwing out a lot of bad roles and calling them bastard (Survivor, voteless, framer). But then again those people have different definitions so.

#11

That post you made admitted that the term is subjective. I only consider it bastard if the class card is lying. If I know there can be a framer then the mod isn’t bastard when my target is framed.

In my mind classes like framers are a good thing. Any (but not all) piece of information needs to be capable of being either false or misleading.

Ex: See no visits as obs? Sorc/Inquis/King/Hunter ect
See a visit? Possessed player
See someone as NS? Mastermind N1-3, Mindwarp, Brotherhood or Dark Wisp
See someone as Unseen/Cult? Frame/Mindwarp
See someone as killer/offensive? Frame
See someone visiting another player who died as obs? They were invest checking them and someone ELSE was the killer
Someone is occ immune? CW barrier
Someone is NOT occ immune? Mastermind
Someone died and flipped assasssin? Possessor or Herbalist
Someone was night immune? King

See what I mean? If you want to remove all false information from ability feedback then you have to change a lot more than just 2 ability’s

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#12

The problem with Frame/Mindwarp is that it rarely take effect.

So when it does, you’re ****ed.

And while the other powers are misleading, it doesn’t straight out lie to you.

#13

Dark wisp doesn’t lie to you?

Brotherhood doesn’t lie to you?

In the shadows doesn’t lie to you?

Facelift and Defile don’t lie to you?

Hell even trollbox lies to you

1 Like
#14

Also all of those hidden visits

#15

Frame absolutely has a place in the game. It being a possibility gives scum a potential out.
The game shouldn’t be 100% results based. If you remove frame, you have to remove all cop-esque functions. or at least nerf them to parity or something.

5 Likes
#16

Hidden visits are a characteristic of a class. It may withold information, but it doesn’t tell you something false, since it isn’t a visit.

Same with Into the Shadows.

I’d argue the other abilities aren’t great, but Trollbox is so weak, and defile/facelift rarely leads to lynches.

Dark Wisp and Brotherhood aren’t great, but they don’t lead to a mislynch

#17

You’ve clearly never facelifted a hunter before :^)

#18

If it has it’s place, it needs to become more common. Frame is so rare right now, that it usually doesn’t even come to mind.

#19

I’m fine with upping scorned’s spawn chance or giving another unseen the ability to frame. Maybe Marshal has a 2 use frame? Could be interesting.

2 Likes
#20

I’ve seen people worrying about it plenty of times.

Maybe not ENOUGH times but straight up removing it is not the solution.