Alchemist executions

Feedback/Suggestions
#1

Throne of Lies is all about lying and trying to find the liars. In order to find the liars you have to use your abilities and share information in order to deduce.

With that im mind, I feel like Alchemists often (90% of the time) get executed just because no one has any other leads and since he is a NEUT, who cares if he gets executed.

I think it would be a nice idea to add some sort of punishment for the “NEUTS OUT” movement we seem to have in this game. It would make players more wary and actually make them use proper deduction/investigations before going for “alch claims”.

Now, don’t get me wrong, “yolo” Alchemists are definitely fair game when it comes to the executing decision but most Alchemists keep to their corner and just heal and still get executed for no actual reason.

As for the punishments, I think something like the following would cause enough impact without making the Alchemist an “untouchable” class.
First of all, the game must register if the alchemist used a “Bomb”. If the Alchemist used it, then none of the following applies:

  • If King used “Order Execution” on an Alchemist, the King loses the other “Order Execution” charge. If the King had already used one and it was his second “OE”, then King loses the daily abilities for ONE day (no Pointing Finger and no Force Pardon/Exe).

  • If Prince executes an Alchemist, Prince cannot jail anyone the next day,

  • If the Alchemist gets voted up for treason and executed, the court cannot vote anyone up the following day.

These “minor” changes would make it so that players actually have to put some effort into investigating the claims instead of just executing an Alchemist because there’s no actual punishment for that at the moment.

#2

But Neuts can side with anyone, their chance of siding with Evil increases as the game goes on. So, BD shouldn’t be punished for lynching people that are expected to betray them as the game goes on. And as Alch, why claim Alch? Alchs can claim Physicians perfectly well.

7 Likes
#3

But that makes the Alchemist a stronger Fool.

1 Like
#4

Yes Alchemists can side with anyone but does this make it so it’s ok to just execute all Alchemist claims? Why even play Alchemist if that’s the case? Also claiming Physician is never a good thing because more than often you’ll get caught in the lie and then you’re definitely getting executed for that.

1 Like
#5

If you believe that the Alchemist becomes too strong, maybe reducing the number of Stoneskin Potions would compensate for that? I don’t know, I’m just throwing suggestions to try and fix the current state of the game. More than often I’ve been “OE” by Kings when I was 100% confirmed as Alchemist (sometimes even the last healer alive) just because of the “Neuts Out” type of play we’ve got going.

1 Like
#6

I never get executed as Alchemist i usually win.

#7

I’m not saying I always lose nor that I can’t win as Alchemist (If I had to guess, I probably have like 70% win ratio with Alchemists). I’m just trying to fix what seems (to me at least) to be a slight problem right now. People can freely execute any alchemist claims without being punished for that. Even when you’re confirmed as an Alchemist, there’s still high chances that BD still tries to execute you. “Neuts Out” shouldn’t be an excuse, that’s all I am trying to fight against.

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#8

There aren’t a lot of faction checks now, only the Observer, if he uses one of his two Window Peeks on you, will see you as a Neut, and by then a Princess is far more likely to have confirmed you with Flirt or you are far more likely to have confirmed yourself with healing. Even Sheriff and Paladins see Alchemists as Not Suspicious, due to being a Neut.

1 Like
#9

But that’s exactly what I am saying here. Even when that’s what happens (you were confirmed to be a Healer/Neutral) you will still be executed sometimes just because “neuts out”. Past two days I’ve had two games that ended up to be that case. One of those games, I was the last healer alive, confirmed healing on a wolf bleeding as well, Neutral King decided to OE me 2 days after that.

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#10

Well then people in your game were absolute jerks, because alchemists are valuable as the last healer, and the fact that a Neut King did that to you makes no sense

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#11

Hence why I think some changes would be positive thou I can see some of your points too. Anyway, it’s just a thought I had, that would maybe help the situation. Who knows?

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#12

But that’s usually abnormal, which is why I feel Alchemist shouldn’t have all those things on him. Alchemists aren’t meant to be ultimate Fools.

2 Likes
#13

Well the difference is that the Fool actually wins if he gets executed and the Alchemist loses. I mean these punishments kinda feel like it’s making the Alchemist a super Fool but in the end they do have very different objectives.
Also I did distinguish both types of Alchemists (yolo bombers and the heals-only)

I don’t know, right now it feels like Alchemists are targets that can be executed with no regrets even when they are confirmed. I just wish this could change somehow. Maybe remove a Stoneskin Potion so alchemists are more susceptible to getting killed by Knights/Cult/Assassin/NKs but buff them in terms of “normal executions”?

1 Like
#14

This is silly. Alchemists are mostly valuable to the BD, since they can cure poison and bleeding; if the the BD runs out of healers, then evils get to kill twice as fast, can easily kill the king, and will usually win.

Besides that, the Alchs Out meta was mostly a result of the king’s Allies. Now only the Observer has it, and he rarely uses it blindly. With no easy way to detect neutrals, NKs have fewer reasons to try a neutral claim in the first place, which makes Alchemist claims safer for actual Alchemists.

Basically, the penalty BD suffer for killing an Alchemist is that they wasted an Alchemist (and it’s a pretty severe penalty if the BD runs out of healers - I’ve seen games that the BD definitely, unquestionably lost because they killed an Alchemist that they later needed to heal someone.)

Also, I mean… an Alchemist doesn’t even have to claim Alchemist. Claim Phys, at least until you’ve healed someone. Again, without Allies, it’s going to be hard for BD to find the truth. (They might suspect someone is an Alchemist if they have too many healers, but what are they going to do? If both real Physicians die, they need the Alchemist even more and would be foolish to blindly lynch them.)

5 Likes
#15

Just don’t claim alchemist and you won’t get killed for being neutral and not a member of the BD. Ofc they might hang you you aren’t on their side…

3 Likes
#16

There is no reason for anyone to kill an Alchemist. BD are giving up a healer, and evils aren’t killing a sworn enemy.

1 Like
#17

There is no reason not to kill an alchemist claim. Any knights should 100% attack an alch claim as

A) They may be lying and be scum
B) Confirms you as killer if you leave note
C) Eliminates a non-BD player. You want as many BD as possible.

Even if I’m not a knight, if we have no leads I would 100% push to hang the alchemist claim if it is very early game (D2 or D3). Only reason I wouldn’t was if someone claimed poisoned.

2 Likes
#18

I mean, aside from the fact that they might be your only healer.

2 Likes
#19

That’s stupid.

#20

Stupid =/= a fair play. The alche is something that can throw the favor and BD don’t like having too many variables that can screw em over

1 Like