K honey when you can come up with a death knight for evils. Give mystic the dead chat when converted. Then we talk. Right now I don’t want to lay in fear of death knights. And if you give evils death knights you are simply negating the power other BD can do. Dead should stay dead
What scum dead interaction? There is none at the moment. Also, you really needed me to specify that it has to be a dead BD in order for this message to appear?
How condescending, how is the fear of a DK any different from the fear of a knight early game?? And lategame it is on you if you don’t take into the possibility of DK’s. Of course lategame physicians have ressed one and you should know who they are by that point.
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Um… one is dead… one isn’t… a person who is dead has more information than who is alive
Well Chill for one.
Plus if the goal is to keep the dead engaged then don’t scum need to be engaged too? Like with Dark Words before the Apostle was reworked.
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Yeah. I suggested that in the OP. Actually, I think Cult/Unseen should always be able to talk with their allies, regardless of what classes they have.
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Which would mean they get free info from any message about there being a Psychic/phys or not.
I like free info
I like free info
I like free info
I like free info
I like free info
I like free info
Data overloaded
Yeah, so that problem is solved by having only dead BD receive that message, because they can disclose that information at their discretion. And scum will figure out anyways if there is a psychic or not if they stay until nighttime. Having that message be displayed upon dying as BD, can be the determining factor in if they leave or stay.
You can nitpick the scenario’s all you want, but it is really easy to balance these things out, so why not just stay on the larger topic of dead interactions as a whole.
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Ok then:
Fact - Some people prefer to leave after they die in the game.
Fact - Some people prefer to stay after they die in the game.
Fact - Dead interaction discourages leaving and encourages staying.
Therefor no matter if we have or don’t have dead interaction, SOMEONE isn’t getting what they wan’t. So before we even get to balance problems we have to ask what most people think and side with them, because that’s how you avoid pissing everyone off. And honestly I don’t think you guys are the majority.
Then there are the balance issues of implementing it. We already have seen how it can cause problems like with the psychic-possessor interaction. Without it we can have some more interesting interactions involving things like Reaper and Herbalist ect.
It’s not that dead interaction doesn’t have it’s own possibility’s but either way you are closing some doors to open others. And the ability to rely on no dead people talking feels like the more important one when you consider how it interacts with the other mechanics.
Why are people suddenly saying this? It’s not true and has never been true. Yes, it does not play with PERFECT ALGORITHMIC PERFECTION, but it has never been a major source of imbalance or problems. Inattentive players cause far more problems than dead leaving.
I mean, yes, Psychics and Physicians like to occasionally complain about dead people leaving (and other people sometimes theatrically complain in order to feign Psychic / Physician without outright stating it.) But in practice, in ToL, there’s almost always a dead person around when there needs to be, and the people who leave immediately N1 or N2 tend to either have no useful information anyway, or tend to have been neutrals / evils in the first place and didn’t have anything to contribute.
There are vastly more significant sources of imbalance and randomness in the game than this; and unlike those, death interactions serve an important purpose, both in adding strategic depth and in keeping the average game bearable for people who like to see how things play out until the end. It is simply not reasonable to remove an entire aspect of the game and to make being dead so much more tedious in order to deal with the vanishingly small percentage of swing that comes from dead people leaving.
A much, much, much bigger source of swing are N1 kills and N1 conversions - in most cases, they are completely random, and unlike the vanishingly rare case of dead people not being around when needed, they happen every single game. There have been some suggestions to reduce that randomness a bit, but the comparison to this would be to prevent any killers from attacking N1, and maybe blocking the hard-result investigators (ones that can instantly determine guilt, like Sheriff / Paladin) from acting N1, too. Logically this would make the game much more “fair” and much less random - weaker information-gathering would come out, people could be pushed to claim, etc, and by the time the really swingy abilities started getting used, there would be more information, more chance for protectives to decide who to protect, and so on. This would be a vastly more significant decrease in randomness than any fiddling with the dead list. So why not do that?
The answer is because it wouldn’t be fun. That’s literally the only reason - mathematically it would be a huge improvement, but who wants to sit around through an entire day with only minor bits of information coming out before the actual killing and conversion starts? Nobody. Just like nobody wants to sit around, bored out of their mind, with no way to interact while dead, every single game. But because some people leave early most of the time, or just tab into another window when dead or whatever, we’re actually considering making the game-when-dead vastly less fun in exchange for that sort of piddling, fiddly theoretical gain.
That’s a huge mistake. We have to consider how the entire game feels when played, the total experience players have from start to finish. That’s, ultimately, the most important part of the game - it’s why eg. delaying all kills and powerful abilities to N2 wouldn’t work. And in that’s why removing dead interactions isn’t going to improve the game, either. It’s sacrificing actual, serious parts of the game’s function for meaningless feel-good numbers on a spreadsheet.
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You don’t need to write a wall of text every time.
You guys are acting like there was this massive amount of dead interaction. It was two abilities, Call of the Dead and Reanimate.
The Psychic wasn’t even a guaranteed spawn, and I rarely ever saw anyone complaining about that. The only thing CotD really did was make the Possessor unable to jump. You can remove their ability to talk to the Psychic, but then what’s the point of CotD. Occasionally someone would have useful information to provide.
Reanimate was extremely OP late-game and Awakened Soul is somehow more powerful.
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People didn’t complain about the Psychic spawn rate because it almost always did spawn!
And from the perspective of the dead, it’s extremely important, because it lets you pass conclusions and logic to the living, which often serves an important role. The fact that there’s only one psychic doesn’t matter, because all the dead can always talk to them; it has a huge impact on the game’s overall experience.
The dead have more time to think about things than the living because they don’t need to use their abilities or think quickly about trials; they can also recall whispers, jailor conversations, etc. they had in life and use those for deductions. To me, many of my favorite moments in games like this are when I’ve been in the dead chat, frantically trying to solve the mystery with the other ghosts, and finally managing to pass the solution on to the Medium or Psychic just in time. It doesn’t always play out that way - often, you’re too late, or don’t manage to solve it at all - but to me, the potential to be able to do that is a huge and absolutely vital part of the game.
If you don’t think its impact is high with Possessor fixed (and, seriously, I’m not sure how you can think that), why just fix the possessor and leave it in? It’s obvious that even if it doesn’t mean much to you, it is extremely important to a lot of players. If you think it just wouldn’t matter with the Possessor fixed like that, well… why not err on the side of leaving it in?
I don’t understand how you can say that it has little impact, while also (despite the significant number of player telling you the game will be much less enjoyable for them without it) insisting that it has to be removed. It’s one or the other, surely? I don’t understand why you’re eager to remove a core feature that you’re simultaneously saying has little impact.
(Beyond that, I would argue that powers that work the way you’re describing - extremely fun, having a major impact on play because every dead person gets to talk to the psychic, while at the same time not being overpowered and, usually, not swinging the game dramatically on its own - those are the sorts of powers the game should have, shouldn’t they? It’s easy to make something fun by making it overpowered; the abilities that are fun without being overpowered are much rarer and more worth preserving.)
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Because regardless of what you say. Call of the dead is not a core feature. All of the core features of the game are present in every game. Yes that means that occupy does not count as a core feature. I don’t play this game because of occupy, I don’t play this game because of the scorned or any particular NK. And despite what you claim I bet you don’t play this game BECAUSE of dead interaction.
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