[Duo Class Suggestion] The Deathcaller and The Shaman, elements-based opposing Neutrals!

[ShadowKnight]

The only way to remove the randomness from the second is to make it so that it doesn’t attack paladins at all. Which is fine by me, but just saying.

I don’t think you could remove the randomness from the first one without creating more information for the Shaman. If it goes down the list in order, the moment it skips a name you know that’s the Deathcaller. If it goes by a specific class order, then you will be able to figure out who each player is, and you will know who isn’t what they say they are when you get to a place on the list and you don’t get their name. If it goes by any order, you will know that when it skips a name, that’s the Deathcaller.

Not all randomness is bad. After all, most N1 targets are chosen randomly.

[Shrimpy]

Well perhaps you don’t have to get rid of the randomness entirely, but at least make it predictable so people can try to figure out who will die. At the moment, two drunks happy houring each other is solved by letting the Drunk with the smallest number win (or maybe it’s largest number, I forgot). So maybe the Paladin with the smallest number gets attacked?

The other ability, I don’t know how to fix it. Maybe it should be reworked? Because it could be mighty frustrating for the Deathcaller if he is under suspicion of being the NK but not as much as this other guy, but then that other guy gets confirmed because of a random passive. If the passive stays as-is, perhaps let the Deathcaller be informed of who is ruled out as not being the Deathcaller so he can try to make a counterplay in advance?

[ShadowKnight]

That’s fair, it could attack the highest paladin on the list.

As for the other passive… maybe just make it so that when you target a player with a Night ability, you know if they are the Deathcaller or not? It encourages spreading out the healing instead of pocketing. Maybe give the Deathcaller undetectability N1, so that at least they can’t be caught right at the very start?

[RHCube]

@ShadowKnight

Call From Beyond (Night) - [Only usable when it has 4 charges] Call forth your dark master, unleashing a wave of death and destruction upon Castle Adiart. You will simultaneously attack the King, Prince and Cult Leader, if any of these still live. If the Prince is dead, you will instead target the Paladin highest on the list. Each use consumes 4 charges. - 0 uses.

This is a bit conditional. What if none of those are alive? Just change it to: Kill and occupy someone. Their class and journal will be wiped.

@ShadowKnight

The Shaman

Neutral Support
Servant of the Elements (Passive) - As The Deathcaller’s power rises, so does yours. When the Deathcaller completes their first kill, the power of Earth makes you immune to bleeding and poison. When the Deathcaller completes their second kill, the power of Air will grant you immunity to effects that warp your mind. When the Deathcaller completes their third kill, the power of Water makes you immune to occupation and redirection. When the Deathcaller completes their fourth kill, the power of Fire grants you the ability to kill at night.
Spiritual Communion (Passive) - You are immune to death at night. At the start of every day, you will know the name of one still living player who is not the Deathcaller.
Spirit Guide (Day) - Send out a helpful spirit to a target, ensuring they receive accurate feedback tonight. Every time the Deathcaller successfully kills with Ritual Murder, you gain an additional use. - 1 use.
Ancient Medicine (Night) - Heal a player. If the Deathcaller attacked them, you will be notified. - Infinite uses.
Ghostflame (Night) - [Only usable when the Deathcaller has claimed their fourth victim] Attack a player at night. If you attack the Deathcaller, you will bypass all their immunities. - Infinite uses.
Survive to see the Deathcaller dead.

No. Hardcounters are a broken concept. They’re boring to play and not fun to play against. And I know that inq and sorcerer already exist, but they also need reworks.

Everything else is fine.

[ShadowKnight]

In the vast majority of cases, Call From Beyond will kill at the very least the Cult Leader and usually also the King. If there is no Cult or King or Prince or Paladins left, just stick to Ritual Murder, you basically won.

I do not share your opinion on hardcounters friend.

[RHCube]

@ShadowKnight

I do not share your opinion on hardcounters friend.

Why? They’re not fun to play against and are boring to play. They’re also too easy to win as.

[ShadowKnight]

The existence of a hardcounter adds a level of tension to gameplay that prevents optimal and predictable decision-making and, from a design standpoint, allows you to add more power to the other class.

The Deathcaller is as powerful as it is because the Shaman is breathing down its neck. Without a hardcounter limiting optimal decisionmaking, the Deathcaller’s play pattern becomes predictable and refined for maximum value and needs to be toned down so that the win rate isn’t too high.

Hardcounters prevent the main class from feeling overly oppressive to others, prevents the player from feeling like there’s no tension to the class and allows the player of the hardcounter to experience a completely different playstyle from normal, which adds to the overall variety of experiences in the game.

[RHCube]

@ShadowKnight

The existence of a hardcounter adds a level of tension to gameplay that prevents optimal and predictable decision-making and, from a design standpoint, allows you to add more power to the other class.

A class should be balanced by itself, it shouldn’t require another class to balance its power.

@ShadowKnight

Without a hardcounter limiting optimal decisionmaking, the Deathcaller’s play pattern becomes predictable and refined for maximum value and needs to be toned down so that the win rate isn’t too high.

Then nerf the deathcaller.

@ShadowKnight

Hardcounters prevent the main class from feeling overly oppressive to others, prevents the player from feeling like there’s no tension to the class and allows the player of the hardcounter to experience a completely different playstyle from normal, which adds to the overall variety of experiences in the game.

It may be different for the player of the hardcounter, but it’s not fun for the player being hardcountered.

[NuclearBurrito]

@RHCube

It may be different for the player of the hardcounter, but it’s not fun for the player being hardcountered.

Let’s be honest here. The Inquisitor is not that fun to play as.

[RHCube]

And it’s also too easy to win as.

[Firekitten]

Inquisitor is only fun when you win and then cc the hunter.

[ShadowKnight]

@RHCube

A class should be balanced by itself, it shouldn’t require another class to balance its power.

You have it backwards. A class doesn’t need the hardcounter to be balanced, the hardcounter’s existence allows you yo push the power and design of a class to places it can’t go without a hardcounter.

@RHCube

Then nerf the deathcaller.

I’d rather not? It literally wouldn’t be the same class. I like the duality and the interplay of both classes. What you are suggesting is basically throwing everything in the trash and starting over.

@RHCube

It may be different for the player of the hardcounter, but it’s not fun for the player being hardcountered.

That’s a matter of personal opinion. An equally valid opinion is that playing a killer that is being hunted down and having to outsmart your pursuer and your victims is both greatly enjoyable and a staple of the thriller/suspense genre.

@NuclearBurrito

Let’s be honest here. The Inquisitor is not that fun to play as.

That feels more like an issue with the execution of the class than with the concept itself.

[NuclearBurrito]

It also adds lots of swing. For example if the Shamin randomly dies D2 or N3 or something then suddenly the Deathcaller is unchecked.

[NuclearBurrito]

@ShadowKnight

I’d rather not? It literally wouldn’t be the same class. I like the duality and the interplay of both classes.

You actually don’t need the classes to be Hardcounters to give them a duality.

[ShadowKnight]

Having death immunity from the start and being a confirmable healer that can help BD get accurate investigation results should do a fair bit at keeping the Shaman alive, especially since they get immunities alongside the Deathcaller. But yes, that sort of thing can happen, but it immediately notifies the entire court there’s a Deathcaller in play, something both BD and evils want to get rid of as their top priority.

[NuclearBurrito]

Oh and the other way around too. If the Deathcaller randomly dies N1 (found by princess, killed by knight, killed by hunter, found by Obs) then the Shamin is OP.

[RHCube]

@ShadowKnight

I’d rather not? It literally wouldn’t be the same class. I like the duality and the interplay of both classes. What you are suggesting is basically throwing everything in the trash and starting over.

Not really. You could just rework Call from Beyond and it would be balanced.

@ShadowKnight

An equally valid opinion is that playing a killer that is being hunted down and having to outsmart your pursuer and your victims is both greatly enjoyable and a staple of the thriller/suspense genre.

How is it fun to be randomly killed N1 by the inq as sorc?

@NuclearBurrito

then the Shamin is OP.

And it becomes useless if you make it so its abilities are disabled

[ShadowKnight]

@NuclearBurrito

You actually don’t need the classes to be Hardcounters to give them a duality.

Each class needs a reason for existing, which means they need to be related in some way. Since this idea is for the classes to oppose each other, they need to have incompatible win conditions, which means they need to have a way to stop each other from achieving their goals and/or get in each other’s way directly.

[NuclearBurrito]

That is not the same thing as a hardcounter

[ShadowKnight]

Like the Inquisitor, once the Shaman wins they lose their abilities. So no, not OP.

And yeah, you can yolojump into a Knight as Possessor or get found early. It’s a thing that happens.