Fake-Claiming on Trial

Class/Lore/Fanfic
#41

I’m not arguing from the point of it should be like this, because it is like this in FoL however.

Still haven’t seen a good counter to the scenario painted in OP which is completely a ToL setting, because we don’t even have Inquisitor (yet :wink: ) in FoL. In fact you even subtly agreed here

If it is even contentious, then it shouldn’t warrant something as heavy as a ban in my opinion.

If this is however combined with a previous record of other rule breaking like spamming or toxicity or whatever, then this can obviously be the cherry on top in a less obvious situation.

Just saying that this in isolation shouldn’t exist as a rule in my opinion and I gave some examples where it highlighted that it wouldn’t be gamethrowing, as that, to me, is intentionally playing against your win condition.

#42

I mean, I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure I’m not supposed to answer specific questions about ‘would X result in a ban or just a warning, or no punishment at all.’

#43

Considering that there is at least 1 situation where truthfully claiming on the stand is a guaranteed loss.

Ex: Elected Evil King with prince on the stand, BD barely has majority and was tricked into immediately voting you up. If you are executed then BD will mathematically lose. However if you trick the court that you aren’t prince then scum will pardon you and vote someone else they think is prince

That means that if fake claiming on the stand is automatically gamethrowing, that in order to not gamethrow you might need to… knowingly take an avoidable loss.

5 Likes
#44

A Butler in a similar situation can work too.

An assassin silence can also make sure you have no choice but to get on the stand no matter what thus preventing a claim before it’s too late.

#45

It is definitely reportable to fake claim on stand, and you shouldn’t do it.

1 Like
#46

L-1 is the FoL equivalent. I hope that to me analogous situation will make this more of a gray situation to you that it is to me.

I don’t think it is at all like the extreme scenario that is being painted (also by me oops) here, but that an appeal and explanation would set this straight right away I’d suppose.

#47

And this isn’t even with a BD minority

#48

So you see no merit in any of the situations sketched in this thread…?

4 Likes
#49

Point is. In order for the claim that fake claiming on the stand as BD = Gamethrowing to be true in all situations there is at least 1 situation where a competent player will gamethrow no matter what action they take.

1 Like
#50

Fake claiming as BD on stand/in jail is reportable for multiple reasons.

  1. Whatever you are doing, you are messing with some sort of count.
    Either the neutral count, or the count of said class you are claiming.
    In the opening example of this, you are claiming Princess as Paladin.
    If you are the only Paladin, suddenly there will be no BD Paladin claim, and the inq or CL might end up being the only Paladin claim, and end up going free beacuse of that.
    Or on the opposite spectrum, you could end up being the 4th Princess claim.

  2. The info you give, can easily be proven to be fake logs. And once they are, you’ll end up getting executed for it. Yes, this isn’t part of the opening example, but it’s still part of why fake claiming as BD on stand is punishable.

Regarding things like the Hunter 1vs1 with EK scenario, yes niche scenarios exist where not claiming/fake claiming can be benefical to you. However, in those cases you won’t be seeing the hunter get reported or punished either.
If it’s like D2 and the hunter doesn’t claim, or fake claims, to just arrow someone because arrow is fun and randomly hits an evil, that hunter will still get punished.

Next I’d like to adress why fake claiming on stand is differnt than open claiming.

Trials are limited.

Anyone can open claim what they want, whenever they want.
But on stand, the attention of everyone is on you, you are literally given time for just you and the King to speak. Nobody can interrupt you, there is no “missing” the claim to anyone that pays ANY attention to the game.
But open claims can go missing, I’ve seen CL/MM attempt to convert an open alch claim more often then I’d like to admit, but that happend because they just missed the open claim.
But not once did I see CL/MM attempt to convert a neut that claimed on stand. Because they all saw the claim.

If trials were not a limited ressource, like jails are, fake claiming on stand would not be punished.
But they are limited.

1 Like
#51

Two problems:

1: Some classes such as assassin are able to silence you. This means they can get you on the stand before you are able to speak. If this is one of the rare situations where a fake claim is optimal then this means you MUST do it during a trial no matter what.

2: Not all players have worked these situations through. For example in the BD Killer/Offensive vs EK example the other players might mistake this for gamethrowing and report anyways. Plus some people might be rules lawyers who don’t care about the spirit of the game and just see “he fake claimed as BD so report” without thinking. So you eventually will have to deal with one of these situations being reported.

And thus you may as well clarify that these people can’t be banned because of this. Otherwise you will have people scared to use the best possible strategy in some situations.

1 Like
#52

Reportable =/= punishable.

2 Likes
#53

This is just a big argument as to why you see it as more optimal in some of the common situations that were described in this thread. That is not describing gamethrowing, but playing suboptimally, which is still subjective in many cases. Gamethrowing is intentionally playing suboptimally.

I’ll agree to disagree then sadly and hope I’m not going to feel particularly daring and claim Alchemist as Physician on the stand for example and get in trouble for it.

#54

Well yeah I agree, but you’re also actively promoting that you should never fakeclaim as BD on the stand.

5 Likes
#55

  1. Yes, assassin and other classes can silence you, but then you just… gotta deal with it, accept the assassin played well, and claim honest on stand.
    In 90% of the situations, explaining your logic instead of fake claiming will work out better anyways.

  2. False reporting will always happen.
    No matter what we do.
    People reported for this specific scenario won’t get punished, neither the reported.

#56

And this thread is specifically pointing out the 10%

Excellent <3

2 Likes
#57

Silence is only 20 seconds. If that suffocates you into death on its own, it means you were too inactive at other points on the stand.

#58

The silence is enough to get you on the stand in the first place.

The assassin just needs to distract you and then accuse you.

If this is done fast enough you won’t be able to post anything before you are on the stand.

Once on the stand you can obviously defend yourself and that’s where this entire discussion comes into play.

1 Like
#59

That’s hypocritical because you might as have been, since being close to hammer is esstentially being on stand there

1 Like
#60

ah
from that perspective, yes, it can lock you out of the right to a fake claim without having any ability to protect yourself
it wasn’t the matter of a good play by the assassin in this regard. Just a rushed one, which works regardless.