[Game Thread] Meowntainado (4/14) - Day 5 - Mafia Wins!

[Luxy]

You may just have to suck it up and read the walls

[Luxy]

But basically, Both Arete and Cabbage have wolfread each other but not pushed each other and then both defend one another later on.

[Luxy]

I always subconsciously think of Arete as a girl idk why

Apologies

[Wazza]

@cabbage

The largest example of Wazza having a 3rd-person view of the game is this post, in which they simply call for the people on the top two wagons to reconsider without actually contributing to the discussion one way or another; this behavior appears to me as if this is a bystander egging things on.

Well what do you think I’m going to respond with when someone is voting to kill someone without actually thinking they’re going to flip Scum? You’re only saying this because they’re the opposite wagon to you. Although I can see why you didn’t vote me, self-preservation and all that, although this post from you is scummy as it just seems like sudden shade you applied to the thread the moment someone else said something. You’re a top wagon, you’d want people to reevaluate you, so why do you find it scummy when someone tells others if they aren’t confident in their read, to reevaluate?

---

In other news, Luxy’s posts have convinced me Cabbage/Arete, however I’m not going to vote Cabbage as to not approach majority, just pretend it’s there spiritually.

[Arete]

@Luxy

Cabbage

(disclaimer that I’ve read both your posts, I’m breaking this up into two posts for readability)

@Luxy

This is such a bad reason to wolfread Marshal and is just extremely worldbuildy. In what world does Marshal so obviously bus a teammate 2 hours in?? That’s so unnatural.

I agree that the read is kind of dumb but I don’t think that makes it wolfy, people on this site have all kinds of ??? ideas about how wolves tend to play

@Luxy

@cabbage

How much of Daisy’s unnatural behavior would you attribute to them using an alt (if they indeed are), and how much would you attribute to them being scum (if they indeed are)?

@cabbage

May I ask how you have so many people you are confident in?

@cabbage

May I ask how you came to those conclusions, especially for emilia and ketsuban?

I’m reading the same things and not getting the same information from it.

Attempting to discredit early reads.

I disagree that these are "discredit"ing, like, having disagreements about some reads isn’t inherently wolfy, asking someone how they got to their reads isn’t wolfy

@Luxy

@cabbage

I agree with Wendy here more than Marshal or anyone else townreading Eli - I think the only thing Eli has going for him is that he has simply provided reads.

Discrediting.

again, just because they disagree with some people being townread doesn’t mean they’re a wolf, it’s not like villagers are a hivemind who all townread the same people all the time. (tbf part of this depends on how well they know Eli/Emilia/etc.)

@Luxy

@cabbage

Could you explain your reasoning on Aelin?

@cabbage

What is your case on Aelin, other than “they don’t feel right”?

@cabbage

Same question to you, Arctic, why do you believe Aelin is scum? Do you have any concrete reasons for your scumread?

Very whiteknighty of Aelin. It does really feel like TMI, Aelin did not have any good looks the entire game, part of the reason I went for him, but Cabbage is hard defending him without much reason to (other than a fast wagon).

I don’t really think these posts are whiteknighty, they’re literally just asking people to explain the read

you could maybe make an argument for some of the posts later in their Iso being whiteknighty but these ones … aren’t

sidenote I feel like half of this post is basically just Luxy townreading/scumreading Cabbage when he agrees/disagrees with their reads

@Luxy

They find it ‘laughable’ that someone would suspect them. This is textbook wolf discrediting.

yeah okay that post was pretty bad

@Luxy

@cabbage

Yesterday both wagons were town, meaning scum would not have cared voting for one wagon over the other. I fully believe that they were voting the more convenient wagon - whether that means voting the individual that they were already voting, voting the one that was more widely scumread (I’m not sure this was actually the case, but some may have thought so), or simply voting Aelin because I was active in thread defending myself and accusing others while Aelin…wasn’t.

@Ketsuban I believe this answers your question as well.

And the next post is the other side of the agenda. Both day 1 wagons were town, no question about it.

what else are they even supposed to say if they’re town?? like, it’s not like a villager is going to be like ‘well, the two wagons yesterday could have been V/W or they could have been V/V, there’s no way to know really’ when they were one of the wagons

@Luxy

@cabbage

Although Wendy claims that Emilia moving her vote is indicative of us both being scum, I would rather suggest to see that both wagons (Aelin and myself) were both town, since if I had been scum with Emilia they would presumably find a better excuse to move.

More Agenda, cabbage repeatedly repeats this in an attempt to make players subconsciously believe it. it’s how misinformation spreads.

this is kind of circular, it’s only agenda if Cabbage is a wolf, if Cabbage is town then it’s just making a true statement

@Luxy

@cabbage

If you still somehow believe that both of us are scum, execute Emilia here - let me prove to you that what I have been saying is correct, and you can determine the likelihood of both of us being scum afterwards.

Agenda and self-preservation. I hate this post with a passion.

this one is actually a reasonable point

@Luxy

His whole argument against Emilia is precedent upon the agenda as well.

this is still circular!! if Cabbage is town then obviously they’re going to assume they’re town when making reads

(there are also a whole bunch of quotes about their hyperfocus on Emilia, whether that’s wolfy or villagery depends a lot on who it is and I’m not super confident in my altread)

overall I don’t really find Luxy’s case on Cabbage convincing at all, there are a couple good points but a lot of it basically starts from the premise that Cabbage is scum which doesn’t really work as an argument for why Cabbage is scum

[Luxy]

@Arete

lot of it basically starts from the premise that Cabbage is scum which doesn’t really work as an argument for why Cabbage is scum

They don’t I’ve said it a few times that I’d expect a town member to go about this day way different to what he’d do as town, and those quotes are illustrating what they would do as a member of the mafia.

Also you haven’t really addressed the other 75% of the posts I discussed in that post

[Luxy]

@Arete

what else are they even supposed to say if they’re town?? like, it’s not like a villager is going to be like ‘well, the two wagons yesterday could have been V/W or they could have been V/V, there’s no way to know really’ when they were one of the wagons

They would look at the game as a whole and try to solve not just ‘yesterday’s wagons were T/T’ and ‘im tunnelling Emilia’ now

[Luxy]

@Arete

this is kind of circular, it’s only agenda if Cabbage is a wolf, if Cabbage is town then it’s just making a true statement

The point here was that he was just constantly restating it multiple times in an attempt to subconsciously influence people’s opinions of yesterday

[Luxy]

@Arete

I don’t really think these posts are whiteknighty, they’re literally just asking people to explain the read

you could maybe make an argument for some of the posts later in their Iso being whiteknighty but these ones … aren’t

I’ll admit its my weakest point there, but its still whiteknighty in the sense that by asking so many questions about it he subconsciously draws doubt to the wagon. it would definitely be a stronger point had Aelin flipped wolf tho.

[Arete]

@Luxy

Arete:

@Luxy

it seems to have been prompted by how much marshal scumread their slot.

It wasn’t prompted by the fact that she was specifically scumreading my slot but rather the reasoning behind her push, which I thought was bad. plenty of people have expressed suspicion of my slot and I don’t scumread most of them, like Hippo was pushing me earlier today and I think Hippo is town

@Luxy

@Arete

/vote Marshal

currently my top suspect, realistically everyone else is going to be like ‘we can’t day 1 Marshal because she’s good at town!!!’ but I’ve decided that it’s super obnoxious when people on MU do that so therefore I’m pushing her anyway >:(

Such a weird way to justify a vote tbh. it’s like she anticipating pushback for this, yet if shes so confident why would there be any push back in her mind?

I mean yeah, I was expecting people to push back on the vote because a lot of people are opposed to voting out good players on day 1 even if they’re wolfy, and … then I got pushback because people didn’t want to vote out a strong player D1 (e.g. Wazza) so I feel like my expectation here was pretty reasonable

@Luxy

@Arete

I don’t care as much about your villagecore in terms of evaluating your alignment because … it’s not like you’re not capable of faking a villagecore as a wolf? I generally think your pushes are more alignment indicative than your towncores unless your towncores are ‘literally the entire wolfteam,’ it’s fairly easy as a wolf to just TMI a bunch of villagers V and conversely you do sometimes defend wolves for reasonable-sounding-but-incorrect reasons as V when you should have known better. like I’m pretty sure every time I’ve tried to use your towncore to read you I’ve been a wolf pushing agenda :wowee:

Interesting way to justify not looking at marshal’s entire view to read him, and instead hyperfocus on one aspect of his ISO to shade him.

if it would be helpful I can give examples of Marshal having reasonable-sounding townreads as a wolf?? but like also ‘having reasonable sounding townreads as a wolf’ is … not hard, for reasons that I literally explained in the quote

@Luxy

Metas Marshal after scumreading Marshal for using Meta?

I don’t think using metareads is inherently wolfy, the issue I had was that that’s basically all of what Marshal was doing

@Luxy

She also doesn’t re-eval after a town Marshal flip.

I literally did, most of my reads weren’t associative/dependent on my Marshal read so Marshal’s flip didn’t really affect them but I specifically tried to reevaluate Arctic since I’d been letting him skate by on subconscious preflips with marshal

@Luxy

No clue why that was a pretty inconspicuous post from ketamine.

Ketsuban is Mist and Mist being passive-aggressive in that way is almost certainly genuine

@Luxy

I don’t know why she didn’t just say it at the start

because I’m dumb

@Luxy

I feel like this sequence of posts was pretty disingenous. Gorta’s suspicions have been said by him multiple times, he just has trouble articulating them. I feel like Arete is trying to make it seem worse, and it would make sense that he sees the people voting him as scum as he is LHF.

if he’d said ‘I think the people voting me are all wolves because I’m an easy push for x y z reasons’ that would have been 10x townier than what he actually did which was to completely avoid the question

I feel like you’re defending Gorta on the basis of him being LHF, which he is, he’s just an LHF regardless of his alignment

@Luxy

Btw this would explain the Marshal kill in one post.

she also has a bunch of posts after that where she says she’s not confident in the read on me/backs off of it

@Luxy

The way cabbage and arete treat each other, by sometimes scumreading one another, and others times defnding one another only makes sense if they’re both wolves.

how does it not make sense if I’m a villager who currently thinks they’re town

@Luxy

Also Arete is a better player than to not lynch the counterwagon to a towny here I think.

I generally try to avoid executing players that I think are town unless I have a really good reason

there are also a zillion quotes in there which I am not going to quote all of that are basically just quoting posts where I defend Cabbage/try to push Aelin over Cabbage/etc. and saying ‘this is agenda because it’s defending Cabbage’ which relies on the assumption that Cabbage is a wolf, which I don’t think they are.

[Arete]

@Luxy

@Arete

lot of it basically starts from the premise that Cabbage is scum which doesn’t really work as an argument for why Cabbage is scum

They don’t I’ve said it a few times that I’d expect a town member to go about this day way different to what he’d do as town, and those quotes are illustrating what they would do as a member of the mafia.

Also you haven’t really addressed the other 75% of the posts I discussed in that post

A lot of them were basically just ‘Cabbage is making a read I disagree with, which is wolfy’ which I believe that you believe but quoting every single one of them to be like ‘but that’s not wolfy actually’ seems kind of pointless

there were also a bunch of points that are like ‘this is why Cabbage and Arete are W/W’ which I know isn’t true but just reiterating ‘this is false because I’m town’ also seems kind of pointless

[Luxy]

@Arete

there are also a zillion quotes in there which I am not going to quote all of that are basically just quoting posts where I defend Cabbage/try to push Aelin over Cabbage/etc. and saying ‘this is agenda because it’s defending Cabbage’ which relies on the assumption that Cabbage is a wolf, which I don’t think they are.

As I said, you being 100% a wolf is based upon cabbage’s flip. I’m not 100% convinced on you being a wolf as although you’ve been individually scummy, it isn’t enough for me to condemn you yet

[Luxy]

@Luxy

@cabbage

I currently scumread Emilia, and suspect you (Marshal), Arete, Gorta, and Luxy, and am willing to convince individuals on any one of them - if anyone is interested, I can provide reasons to vote each of these players.

Notice how he says he scumreads three top players, yet the only players he has actually pushed are LHF players? It very much seems like he is only targeting players who are easy lynches.

@Luxy

Cabbage instantly starts the day hard on Emilia, conveniently one of the things they’d have to do if they were a wolf. They don’t re-evaluate at all after two town flips.

@Luxy

I said before: My point is the way you go about it is very agendery. You’re hyperfocussed on two things: 1. the top wagons yesterday were T/T and 2. Emilia is wolf, besides that you don’t see to be gamesolving. I honestly think if you’d town you’d come across way less agendery and focus less on self-preservation here. Cabbage does not take a whole game approach until told to by others, he constantly focuses on pushing these two points alone until he is called out for it.

@Luxy

Still hyperfocussed on Emilia until told to do something else by myself.

@Luxy

Discrediting of tonereads.

@Luxy

I don’t believe a towny would be so focussed on LHF exclusively and self-preservation. Also of note is that he has now completely forgotten his scumread of Arete, and evenly subtley defends scumreads on Arete, pretty convenient if they’re teamed:

@Luxy

Overall, Cabbage has been hyperfocussed on LHF players from the start of the game. He says he has scumreads on strong players, but does not follow these up and continues to push on players who would be an easy mislynch. These reads on players like myself don’t change his view of the weaker players and his reads appear in a vaccuum, not in the context of the game and a team. His scumreads are of individual players and he doesn’t consider how they’d fit together, indicative of mid-level wolf read faking. His read on Marshal was extremely worldbuildy and made no sense, especially as Marshal flipped town. Day 2 he pushes an agenda by repeatedly stating the two things that will keep him alive, wagons are T/T and Emilia is a wolf. He doesn’t take a look at the whole game at all, even when prompted by myself (he made a few reads in isolation again) and continues to focus either on Emilia and gorta, both LHF who are easy alternatives to himself. his focus on self-preservation is extremely wolf-like, as a wolf needs to survive a lot more than a towny does, and he never takes a look at the game as a whole. In other words, his entire worldview comes from a wolf faking his reads. The Marshal night kill makes a lot of sense, as marshal was the main pusher on cabbage and would defeat his agenda the next day. Marshal was otherwise scumread and would probably have been a good mislynch target from Arete. Also he was the counterwagon to a town member, and should just be lynched for good mafia play, and he definitely should not be allowed to endgame. Overall, cabbage has an extremely high wolf-equity and should be the lynch for today.

I think you’ve forgotten to address these points Arete

[Luxy]

@Arete

if he’d said ‘I think the people voting me are all wolves because I’m an easy push for x y z reasons’ that would have been 10x townier than what he actually did which was to completely avoid the question

I feel like you’re defending Gorta on the basis of him being LHF, which he is, he’s just an LHF regardless of his alignment

Honestly, him being a LHF definitely got me looking at you again. It definitely felt like you were just pummelling him which I don’t think you’d do as town.

[Hippolytus]

@Arete

like Hippo was pushing me earlier today and I think Hippo is town

If you thought I was town after I sussed you why did you say you liked ketsuban for shading me?

@Arete

Ketsuban is rapidly rising to the top of my towncore

@Ketsuban

oh, i’m sorry that you aren’t able to accept the fact that someone might potentially scumread you

[Luxy]

@Arete

how does it not make sense if I’m a villager who currently thinks they’re town

Because there was no progression there.

Also its not hard defending, its a subtle sort of discrediting/defence that generally comes from partners.

[Arete]

I literally just answered a question about this read, the thing I liked about it wasn’t specifically the fact that it was shading you but rather the way that Kestuban/Mist was getting passive-aggressive about it, she could be doing it to any player in the game and I would think it was villagery

[Luxy]

All of cabbage’s reads are in a vacuum and he isn’t actually trying to link his reads together to form potential scumteams etc

[Luxy]

Anyway, I want cabbage to die first because I’m not sure on Arete, maybe they can change my mind on themselves being partnered with cabbage, but I don’t see a way cabbage flips town here

[Luxy]

As I said a lot of my read on Arete was pre-flip which is why I am waiting for the cabbage flip to condemn Arete or re-eval