The best solution is to remove Fool, and also Scorned to a slightly lesser extent.
Will that happen? Probably not.
Should Fool have never been in the game to begin with? Clearly.
Yet here we are.
Honestly, I dislike Scorned. Neat idea, but in execution it’s… meh.
But you sort of need them to keep things mostly fair for lucky checks early in the game for scum.
don’t announce your results until you have 3 confirmed unseen or you are dead 
And scorned is also necessary so evils have a counter play to being called out. It makes it more about persuasion and lying which is good.
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@Hippolytus neither of those are true, actually. Let’s break this down and see why.
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“Fool is needed to stop VFC”
First off, I think this is the wrong approach to take. What normally dissuades people from VFC in this game is primarily three things, neither of which are Fool: the hidden role list, making it hard to solidly compare claims; conversion, making it hard to know that solid claims are actually good; and the possibility of an Evil King, making it actually terrifying to see the Prince hit the stand. If you’re dissuaded from voting for classes because a bad claim may be a Fool, just start letting the Prince handle those cases.
The argument I usually see for Fool is it adds some “uncertainty” to a lynch. The issue with the Fool is the same as old Poacher - the uninformed majority should not be punished for a correct lynch. You think a guy is evil, call him out, and then he punishes you for being correct? Does that feel good? No. It’s an absurdly easy role to win as, especially with a self-frame of all things, and it adds nothing to the game. You shouldn’t be afraid to execute a scummy person because they might be a scum class that is trying to get executed to hurt you, you should be afraid to execute a scummy person because they might not be scum. If there’s any fear in the lynch, it should be only in the strength of the accusation and of the defense. The evil roles shouldn’t have a crutch to carry bad play on, and the good ones should never be punished for being correct about scum.
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“Scorned is necessary so evils have a counter to being called out”
Isn’t that what a good claim is for? Isn’t that why some converted roles can frame others? Scorned doesn’t make the game more about persuasion and lying, it reduces that effect. It’s not as bad as the Fool, not even close, but it still is hardly “necessary” to counter an investigative claim. Pull out your own claim and be better at it then they are. If not, you’ll be replaced anyways. It’s not like evils would have a significantly lower winrate if Scorned was removed. This role is also really easy, and a lot of the time people just lynch their targets anyways. It’s usually not worth the risk of a Scorned regardless, and anybody who calls out their accuser as “Scorned!” is usually lynched for being scum with a crappy defense.
What if in addition to not being able to vote the next day, killers wouldn’t be able to kill that night either? Would this be fair in punishing all factions for a Fool execution and make the Fool more of a “true” neutral?
I mean, as a Scorned you literally have to persuade everyone and lie to hang your target, so it obviously increases that effect.
Also keep in mind once a Sheriff claims they are Sheriff in chat,the unseen will almost always convert you the next day, feelsbadman
The thing is that the evils never call anyone out as Unseen/(non-fool/scorned)Neut. It is either not worth it or the MM is busing someone instead. This means that a sheriff or obs calling someone out is telling the truth almost 100% of the time. The Scorned fixs this by simply being able to exist. Without the Scorned if the assassin is called out by a sheriff/obs claim then it doesn’t matter how good his claim is because the sheriff claim is never scum (remember unseen never accuse BD (even if this isn’t true it feels like it is and that is close enough) of being unseen). With the Scorned however there is usually at least 1 person out there who is trying to get BD accused and will claim sheriff to do so. I know that this is a meta problem that could be solved by having the unseen accuse BD as sheriff more (I made an entire post about it.) but the devs can’t directly control the meta like that without adding a class that punishes the BD for lynching them (aka fool/old poacher) which we already established is not the best idea to have a lot of.
If we’re at max Unseen and MM has convert up I’ll often claim a random guy is unseen. He’ll die and it’s a win, I’ll die and we get to convert.
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Ideally everyone would think to do this (like I said I made an entire post about it.). Unfortionetly people usually just bus one of their own. I would bus someone once as MM then late game accuse someone of being unseen. Since I am established to be creditable they get lynched and since it is late game it is too late for them to do something about it. GG no re. Unfortionitly the game does not have people doing that enough. They bus often enough but they rarely accuse anyone
That’s a problem with the players, not with the game.
Scorned isn’t a fix to an issue, it’s a crutch.
I know it is. I acknowledged that twice now. I am saying that it is a necessary crutch at the moment. The ideal situation is the one Hippo mentioned. That being said that does not mean that the Scorned should be removed later if the player base changed (not that it would happen unless people stop joining) because not even a smart player would random accuse someone early game as unseen/cult. It just isn’t worth it until you have a full team or it is late game. Scorned has its place in the early game even with good players. The only problem is what to do after you win as scorned. Unfortionatly I don’t have an answer to that so ya. Any ideas?
Nuclear is right. Most people are stupid and will never change. That is why you need scorned and fool.
I admire your faith in humanity orange but it is naive. You sweet summer child.
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Scorned is a playerbase thing, sure.
Fool isn’t.
Don’t pretend like it is, that overvalues it.
Fool covers the same Idea that Scorned does but less directly. It isn’t really necessary because the scorned exists and does it better but the fool is still fun to play and does its job (although not necessarily an important or even good job but still). I personally like the fool but I get that he isn’t that good for the game as a whole. I’m not particularly upset with the fool in the current patch due to the Hide ability making him much easier to find as fool rather than unseen or NK.
Fool is alright-ish
It’s still bad but the punishment isn’t excessive enough to warrant my full attention
problem with that, is it isn’t a punishment at all… Killing a fool day 2, is a HUGE boon for BD… deaths are halted giving time for investigators to investigate, and giving breathing room to hold off on the executions until they have better leads to work with.
As much as I don’t like fool existing in general, I don’t think it can ever be tilted to the point where a day 2 claim “hey guys I’m fool, execute me today”, is a beneficial offer to take up.
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