Noble and Aristocrat Rework v3

[RHCube]

Note: This should be added at the same time as(or after) my [color=Lighblue]Mystic[/color] Rework. I’ll be creating a separate thread for apostle.

Noble

Theme: Spying

Abilities

• Passive 1: Royal Blood- During the election for a new king, votes for you count twice. This passive will be kept even if your class changes.

• Night Ability 1: Eavesdrop(Uses: 2 or 3) - Receive the contents of all public whispers tomorrow.

• Night Ability 2: Gossip (Uses: Unlimited) - Receive the feedback of all visiting abilities used on your target. May not receive feedback for conversions(But can receive feedback for attacks and evil supporting abilities. Note: The feedback for frames, tailors, and defile should be changed to: “You disguised TARGET”)

• Day Ability 1: Encode(Uses: 2) - All information(IDK if this is the correct term. This means whispers, accusations of treason, and votes) received by and sent from your target will be hidden for the rest of the day.

• Day Ability 2: Transcript(Uses: 1) - Reveal the contents of all previous whispers to and from your target at the end of tonight.(Note: Can target dead players.)

Aristocrat

Theme: Applying pressure and coordinating scum

Abilities

• Passive 1: Royal Blood- During the election for a new king, votes for you count twice. This passive will be kept even if your class changes.

• Passive 2: Private Matter - The unseen may talk to each other in a separate chat during the day while you are still alive. (Note: The unseen, cult, and prince chats should be changed so they are accessed and viewed in a separate chat tab.)

• Night Ability 1: Recording(Uses: unlimited) - View your target’s chat history. Receive the feedback of all visiting abilities used on your target

• Night Ability 2: Spy(Uses: Unlimited) - Receive the contents of all whispers to and from your target. Does not count as visiting. Players will remain targeted by this until you change targets.

• Day Ability 1: Mental Blur(Uses: 2) - Erase your target’s chat history.

• Day Ability 2: Crack(Uses: 2) - Reverse the state(not sure if this is the correct term.
  By this I mean public/private) of information received by and sent from your target. Targeting a player who has been targeted by spy will allow you to select a new target.

Changelog

• 8/28/18: Created thread

Version 1.1

• Reduced Intrigue to 3 uses.
  *Removed redundancy of Private Matter
• Gave crack 2 uses

Version 2

• Removed Mental Blur

• Spy is now a day ability

• Intrigue is now one use

Version 2.1

• Gave Aristocrat Hypnotize

Version 2.2

• Replaced hypnotize with Recording

Version 3

• Removed intrigue

• Changed Spy to a night ability

• Spy now does not count as visiting

• Added Mental Blur as a day ability.

• Transcript now resolves at the end of the night

[Alice]

Encode is just downright negative utility tbh. There’s no reason to hide votes from BD as it just helps evils.

[Alice]

Also unlimited blackmail is a pain to balance properly without making it too frustrating for the receiving player.

[RHCube]

It’s mainly a counter to spy. I’ll remove the hidden votes and accusation thing though(It should be kept for aristocrat)

@Alice

Also unlimited blackmail is a pain to balance properly without making it too frustrating for the receiving player.

That’s why I made it so you could speak to the blackmailer. I wouldn’t be opposed to limiting its uses though, but how many should it have?

[Alice]

Since the blackmailer is confirmed scum, there’s no reason for BD to speak with them, so this will be useless in most cases unless the target is a neut. I’d give it around 2 uses at most.

[NuclearBurrito]

Noble looks good. I would do a few things with the Aristocrat:

1: [quote=“RHCube, post:1, topic:71943”]
Whispers between the unseen will be hidden from the court.
[/quote] Remove this. It’s redundant with the rest of the passive and just gives a potential (and silly) method of outing an Aristocrat.

2:

@RHCube

Night Ability 1: Spy(Uses:Unlimited) - Send a maid to receive the contents of all whispers to and from your target. Spies will remain on a target until you change targets. Does not count as visiting. May not target someone you have blackmailed.

Make this a day ability

3. [quote=“RHCube, post:1, topic:71943”]
   Night Ability 2: Intrigue(Uses: Unlimited) - Blackmail your target. Players will remain blackmailed until you change targets. May not target someone who you have spied on.
   [/quote]

While you don’t HAVE to go with current intrigue I would stick to something that doesn’t out you. Personally I would stick with current Intrigue (altered like you did with gossip of course) and do something more interesting with the second Ability. Spacificaly:

3:

@RHCube

Day Ability 2: Mental Blur(Uses: 2) - Erase the chat history of your target, and gain a copy of it. The copy may be viewed at any time(Note: To view it, a tab should be added to the top of the chat window that will display your name. Clicking on your name will show a list of names whose chat history you can view.

Make this a night ability that doesn’t erase chat history and just gives you a copy. Maybe also give it more uses idk.

If you really don’t like intrigue then an alternative ability would be a (limited use) day defile. As in you use it on someone and if they are lynched the next day then they flip as a class you chose that night.

Also give crack another use

[NuclearBurrito]

Encode is like PM that can be used on someone else. Crack is just encode that can also be used to cancel out itself

[RHCube]

It wouldn’t be useless. This is a safe way of communicating with the blue dragon. You could pressure players(ex: Occupy X or we will kill you). It would also allow you to coordinate with scum neuts.

@NuclearBurrito

1: Remove this. It’s redundant with the rest of the passive and just gives a potential (and silly) method of outing an Aristocrat.

Alright.

@NuclearBurrito

Make this a day ability

I made it a night ability so it could keep encode and have mental blur.

@NuclearBurrito

While you don’t HAVE to go with current intrigue I would stick to something that doesn’t out you. Personally I would stick with current Intrigue (altered like you did with gossip of course) and do something more interesting with the second Ability. Spacificaly:

Would it be fine if I reduced the uses to 2 or 3? And there’s not anything wrong with confirming a converted class. Unseen classes should be different from(and possibly stronger than) their Blue Dragon equivalent. If it had limited uses then it would be unlikely for you to change targets.

@NuclearBurrito

Make this a night ability that doesn’t erase chat history and just gives you a copy. Maybe also give it more uses idk.

What’s wrong with it? It would be a great counter for the whisper meta(King/Prince: Whisper me claims. Everyone whispers them. King/prince: Send them again I got blurred).

@NuclearBurrito

If you really don’t like intrigue then an alternative ability would be a (limited use) day defile.

A day defile should be given to herbalist instead since it would fit with herbalist more.

[NuclearBurrito]

@RHCube

Would it be fine if I reduced the uses to 2 or 3?

No. The uses are not the issue.

@RHCube

And there’s not anything wrong with confirming a converted class.

There is actually. You can balence around that fact but it doesn’t change the fact that it was a problem in the first place.

@RHCube

Unseen classes should be different from their Blue Dragon equivalent.

Not my issue. I even said myself that I’m not going to insist you keep Intrigue.

The real issue is that it has limited utility, is unfun for the blackmailed player and is on a class which can do so much more. Optimal play is to accuse the blackmailed player, that way he can’t defend himself. That’s why making it limited doesn’t help, 1 use is enough for the strategy.

Why is it fine on Reaper? 3 reasons:
A: it synergies with his Kit. Spacificaly Reap
B: He cannot afford to suicide accuse because he is NK
C: It has other effects that give it additional utility

Not to mention that blackmail is the Aristocrats PRIMARY ability (spy has a scout effect so no need to keep using it). An ability that auto outs you should always be a secondary ability at most.

And no. Blackmails secondary effects are not redeeming because they are useless 9/10 times.

I suggested a day defile because it has a similar use case but is way more interesting. I do not insist on that in particular.

@RHCube

What’s wrong with it? It would be a great counter for the whisper meta(King/Prince: Whisper me claims. Everyone whispers them . King/prince: Send them again I got blurred).

Blurring like that doesn’t actually help. If they have a good memory or if they are a fast typer then you haven’t accomplished much by removing chat history. If you make it a night ability that doesn’t give away that you used it then it has much more utility.

If you make transcript give you the information at the end of the night like Exhume does (you should) and then make blur a night ability with the option of targeting dead people then it is an interesting method of faking a transcript without being a copy of the ability while also letting spy be more agile.

[NuclearBurrito]

Honestly thought. If anyone needs a day defile then it is Scorned

[RHCube]

@NuclearBurrito

The real issue is that it has limited utility,

Not really. You could silence loud/confirmed players(which can be useful if there’s another important target to kill), pressure offensives into doing what you want, trick supports, give info to the blue dragon without outing an unseen(and this would usually have to do with outing neuts)

@NuclearBurrito

Not to mention that blackmail is the Aristocrats PRIMARY ability (spy has a scout effect so no need to keep using it). An ability that auto outs you should always be a secondary ability at most.

Alright, I’ll change it. IDK what the new primary ability should be though.

@NuclearBurrito

I suggested a day defile because it has a similar use case but is way more interesting.

I agree that a day defile would be a good addition. There’s no deception to executions currently.

@NuclearBurrito

If you make transcript give you the information at the end of the night like Exhume does (you should) and then make blur a night ability with the option of targeting dead people then it is an interesting method of faking a transcript without being a copy of the ability while also letting spy be more agile.

That could work.

[NuclearBurrito]

@RHCube

IDK what the new primary ability should be though.

Few options.

A: Existing Intrigue. Boring but effective

B: Modified intrigue. Gets the targets feedback instead of their visitors. Not King obviously

C: Hypnotize here instead of on Illusionist. Replace it with Conduit for illusionist

D: Something else. Apostle proves it doesn’t need to be able to fake Gossip with the ability so you could do something I haven’t thought of so long as the ability is good on its own merits or if it synergies with the Kit (I’ll let you know if I get more ideas)

As for blackmail there are 2 main issues:

A: Silencing the target

B: Outing your existence with it

A solution to this is to give the Mastermind (or assassin instead of distract) the ability to send someone a private anonymous message with a day Ability. They would know the Unseen sent it. This is a more natural and realistic way of blackmailing someone. Since it’s on the starting scum outing their existence doesn’t do much.

[RHCube]

@NuclearBurrito

Hypnotize here instead of on Illusionist. Replace it with Conduit for illusionist

That could work, but conduit shouldn’t be unlimited. Wait would this work instead: Hypnotize as a night ability, spy as a secondary ability, and here’s an option for a new day ability: Mental Blur(1 or 2 uses) - Erase your target’s chat history and journal. Gain a copy of their chat history and journal. They may not write in their journal anymore.

@NuclearBurrito

A: Silencing the target

That’s why I made it so you could talk to the player who blackmailed you.

@NuclearBurrito

B: Outing your existence with it

Would it be better if mastermind had it instead as a foresight replacement?

[NuclearBurrito]

@RHCube

Mental Blur(1 or 2 uses) - Erase your target’s chat history and journal. Gain a copy of their chat history and journal. They may not write in their journal anymore.

Still has less utility than just giving you a copy of the chat log (which can also be used to fake transcript remember) and is not worth giving up the extra agility for spy.

Also has the same issue as before except now they have to record their noted in their private notes. A slightly better way to go about it is make it so their Journal is wiped if they die that night (and still keep it as a night ability)

[NuclearBurrito]

@RHCube

That’s why I made it so you could talk to the player who blackmailed you.

Doesn’t solve the problem. You have nothing to say to them.

@RHCube

Would it be better if mastermind had it instead as a foresight replacement?

Definitely not. Foresight had far more going for it than Blackmail

[RHCube]

Is it good now?

[NuclearBurrito]

Better but still not good

[NuclearBurrito]

You really should just make Intrigue give you a copy of target player’s chat log (not King) can target dead players. Then make Transcript resolve at the end of the next night and it’s perfect

[RHCube]

I kept intrigue, but I did make recording as a hypnotize replacement(or should it stay and give intrigue to another class?)

@NuclearBurrito

Then make Transcript resolve at the end of the next night and it’s perfect

Why?

[NuclearBurrito]

@RHCube

or should it stay and give intrigue to another class?

Yes. I already told you it works better on MM/Assassin.