Prince rework Less powerful

Class/Lore/Fanfic
#61

Well I gave you a comprehensive definition.

Basically balance is where winrate = 1/#offactions for all players where all sets of players who win together and don’t win with the other factions is considered a faction. You can just declare an arbitrary team to be a faction so long as they share a win so as to let that work.

In the event that the game is not faction based this breaks down. For example in DBD you technically have no factions since all wins are both individual and not always mutually exclusive, if they were mutually exclusive then we could call them 1 person factions like in a battle royal but they aren’t. You need a different formula for those games.

Regardless for ToL this works.

What’s your definition? Just whatever your intuition says or something more specific?

#62

I guess I’ll say that it’s my definition for balance of roles in a faction based game (which is most games) since you can balance things besides roles and some games are not faction based.

#63

Social Dudection works alot differently to most games

Balance for me is each team having a fair chance espically the main factions.

Nk having a 33% win rate ruins my whole enjoyment of nk and I rather have it removed.

#64

ok. So under that definition the NK ought to have the same winrate as the BD and cultseen in order to be balanced

#65

Nope because Nk is a single member, I think main factions should be around each others win ratio.

The whole point of nk is to be a challenging difficult third party member, it takes the whole point of nks out of the window removing them.

#66

So? Teams can contain a single player. Otherwise some mini mafia setups have some explaining to do.

#67

well simply remove nk if your going to make it boringly overpowered.

#68

Until you have a definition that establishes otherwise it would be boringly but appropriately balanced at worst

#69

That means you can just remove nk as of whole “for balance” compering nk to other social dudection games or classic wolf forum games (that have nk) nk has the lowist win rate

I’m not comparing Tols balance to some random online shooter.

#70

Nk is meant to be fun and challenging making nk a single member with a 33% win rate is boring and un-unique.

#71

Very much an unfounded claim.

Have you checked every possible method of balancing such an NK with those numbers? How do you KNOW it would be guaranteed to be unfun rather than just something that needs to be handled with care.

#72

And again. Why does this line of reasoning not apply to other situations where one team is out numbered by another, and sometimes the smaller team consists of a single player?

#73

Your ruining the whole point of nk though is meant to be a hard to win work alone class.

Neutrals win rates don’t need to be balanced aslong as they are fair enough and doesn’t ruin the game with there abilities.

#74

You can never have 33/33/33 Nk isn’t even a faction to begin with.

#75

Sure you can.

Any combination of winrates that add up to 100% and contain all present factions is possible in principle.

#76

And under the definition I provided NK would qualify as a faction.

The reason why I used that definition as opposed to the mechanical one is because otherwise it would give the NK a 0% winrate or a 50% winrate both of which are just worse

#77

are you even getting the point?
Nk isn’t a main faction and doesn’t need a33% win rate if your idea of balance is making everything boring and formulaic then that’s a bad idea.

you could have a random number generator 1-3 that randomly generate, 1 bd wins, 2 evils win, 3 nk wins, yes it would be “balanced win rates” but it doesn’t really make the game balanced.

Balance for me is more secure win rates not a percentage.

#78

Secure by if “X” Spawns this faction is going to have a similar win rate still

For example when observer spawns it likely makes bds chances of winning higher.

#79

Ok well how can you rule out a hypothetical set of fun and interesting game mechanics for ToL that happens to give everyone a 33% winrate?

I mean we have been approaching this gradually over time. There ought to be an extremely large number of potential buffs that would give NK’s a 33% winrate just because of the shear number of buffs that could be given.

Since the number of potential buffs is extraordinarily high, how can you just say that all of them are automatically boring? Sure you can say that specific changes are boring but you just wrote off the entire idea of buffing them outright with no reasoning other than just asserting that it would be boring.

#80

Heck it wouldn’t even need to be by definition more swingy than it already is, since increasing their kill power is not the only method we have when simply giving them better tools to hide ect would do the job in a much healthier manner.

Plenty of people who have been against for example the maid finding NK (including the FoL balance team it seems) would totally push such a change