SFoL 64: Duel of the Juggernauts discussion and balance thread

[Geyde]

This is a 18p game, yes or yesn’t

[Vulgard]

@Geyde

Setup currently lacks a power town role?
Theoretically you could have it be the og arbiter

that’s the current idea

@katze

reworked with the intent to make them not OP

yes that’s what i was trying to do

[Geyde]

My personal take is if anyone ever wanted to put Syndicate in something it’d be a mash
It’s insanely volatile

[Geyde]

Now, you could change it
But that’s not the vibe I get from what N.1 is saying

[Vulgard]

i agree that a mash could work better tbh

[Vulgard]

do i go find my syndicate classcards and post them here?

[Geyde]

If you want to, sure

[katze]

marchioness/handmaiden vs socialite

@N.1

The Marchioness

Unseen Investigative
Royal Blood (Passive) - Your votes for King will count twice.
VIP List (Day) - By the end of the coming night, you will know how many players of different factions visited you but will not be told which factions. - 2 uses
Social Links (Night) - Select two players and you will receive a positive result providing both targets’ class type groupings match. Groups are Special/Investigative, Social/Support, and Killer/Offensive. You will receive either no match if they are from different groups, a good match if they are in the same group, and a perfect match if they are the same class type. For this ability, any Arbiter and the first Visionary will appear to be the class they have asked to appear as to the host at the start of the game. - Infinite uses
Night Waltz (Night) - Select two players and you will receive a positive result providing both targets’ alignments match; otherwise a negative result. - One use
Defeat the Blue Dragon or Hand of Byzantium and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

Converts into The Maid or The Socialite

@N.1

The Handmaiden

Unseen Investigative
Change Sheets (Day) - Target two dead players. At the end of the night, you will learn if they were killed by the same player. - 2 uses
Rumor (Day) - You cannot use this ability on day 1. Make a player “last checked” in regards to Matchmake. - 2 uses
Matchmake (Night) - Test if a player is compatible with the player you last checked. - Infinite uses
Prying Servants (Night) - Choose a living player and a dead player. At the end of the night, you will learn if the living player visited the dead player on the night they died. - 3 uses
Defeat the Blue Dragon or Hand of Byzantium and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

Converts into The Maid or The Socialite

@N.1

The Socialite

Hand of Byzantium Investigative
Royal Blood (Passive) - Your votes for King will count twice.
The Woman Behind the Hand (Passive) - You will appear as Unseen to faction checks and will be promoted straight to Arbiter if the Arbiter dies, regardless of when they die or if the Champion is still alive. This passive is not lost when you are promoted to a Champion , only when you become the Arbiter .
Guest List (Day) - By the end of the coming night, you will know how many players of each faction visited you. - 2 uses
VIP List (Day) - By the end of the next night you will know which players visited the Arbiter that night. - 3 uses
Social Links (Night) - Select two players and you will receive a positive result providing both targets’ class type groupings match. Groups are Special/Investigative, Social/Support, and Killer/Offensive. You will receive either no match if they are from different groups, a good match if they are in the same group, and a perfect match if they are the same class type. - Infinite uses
Faction Links (Night) - Instantly reduce the cooldown of the Arbiter ’s conversion by one night. - One use
Defeat the Unseen and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

marshal vs agent

@N.1

The Marshal

Unseen Investigative
Tireless (Passive) - If you do not perform an action at night, you will learn if any of your previous uses of Expert Investigation and Case Closed showed incorrect results and which ones were incorrect.
Scout (Day) - Your scout will inform you whether a particular player has been visited by a member of the Blue Dragon or the Hand of Byzantium tonight and the faction of the player that visited your target if so. - Infinite uses
Peerless Confidant (Day) - Employ your most trusted confidant to keep watch on two players at once tonight. This confidant will tell you if either or both players are visited by a member of the Blue Dragon or the Hand of Byzantium tonight and the faction of the player(s) that visited your target(s) if so. - One use
Expert Investigation (Night) - If a player is a member of the Blue Dragon or the Hand of Byzantium , learn their faction. - Infinite uses
Case Closed (Night) - Very carefully examine a player tonight. If they are a member of the Blue Dragon or the Hand of Byzantium , learn their exact class. - 2 uses
Defeat the Blue Dragon or Hand of Byzantium and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

Converts into The Sheriff or The Agent

@N.1

The Agent

Hand of Byzantium Investigative
Eyes of the Hand (Passive) - At the end of each night, you learn which members of the Hand of Byzantium were visited by members of the Unseen and how many visits occurred per member.
Go Undercover (Day) - Activate a Sleeper Agent to pursue a player sneakily into the night. They will discover who a player visits and who visits them at the end of the night. - 4 uses
Secret Service (Night) - Employ your secret service to keep tabs on three specific players tonight. If any of them target one another, you will learn exactly what ability(s) was/were used, from who within these three and onto who within these three. - Infinite uses
Untraceable (Night) - Your efforts as an agent are so effective that no one can trace you or your team. Hide the entirety of the Hand of Byzantium from any and all investigative checks for the night. - One use
Defeat the Unseen and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

stalker/nightwatch vs watchman

@N.1

The Stalker

Unseen Investigative
Tracking (Day) - You will learn if your target left their room last night. - 2 uses
Vigilant Stalking (Night) - You will learn who your target visits this night. - Infinite uses
Defeat the Blue Dragon or Hand of Byzantium and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

Converts into The Observer or The Watchman

@N.1

The Nightwatch

Unseen Investigative
Follow (Night) - Observe a player to see who visits them at night. - Infinite uses
Window Peek (Night) - Learn a target’s faction. - 2 Uses
Defeat the Blue Dragon or Hand of Byzantium and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

Converts into The Observer or The Watchman

@N.1

The Watchman

Hand of Byzantium Investigative
Tracking (Day) - Tomorrow, you will learn if target player left their room last night. - 3 uses
Spotter (Day) - Assign an observer to a player. You will learn who visited them at the end of every night. Reusing the ability will swap the observer to a different player. You may target yourself. - Infinite uses
Silent Stalking (Night) - Learn a player’s visitors and who they visited. - Infinite uses
Midnight Vigil (Night) - Learn the visitors of two players and who they visited. You will only be seen visiting the first player. - One use
Defeat the Unseen and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

duchess/archivist vs librarian

@N.1

The Duchess

Unseen Investigative
Royal Blood (Passive) - Votes to become king count as two for you.
Bat Eyelashes (Night) - Check to see what class type the selected player is. You will receive two results, one of which will be their real type, and one won’t be. - Infinite uses
Dark Wisp (Night) - Uncage a Dark Wisp, making any attack attempts your target makes fail. If they try to kill somebody, you will know. - 2 uses
Defeat the Blue Dragon or Hand of Byzantium and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

Converts into The Princess or The Librarian

@N.1

The Archivist

Unseen Social
Prestige (Passive) - Only up to two classes with Prestige may spawn; including the starting Blue Dragon or Hand of Byzantium class (if the starting Blue Dragon or Hand of Byzantium class has Prestige, their equivalent Unseen class cannot spawn).
Repository (Passive) - You start in a public log network by yourself. Players in the network will be allowed to read the logs of any other player in the network. The Repository remains open while the archivist is still alive regardless if they have been converted.
Archive (Day) - Invites a player to the log network. The player must accept before joining and can choose to leave at anytime. Can only invite two players per day. - Infinite uses
Revoke (Night) - Removes a player from the log network. - Infinite uses
Censorship (Night) - Deactivates the Blue Dragon or Hand of Byzantium day chat for the next day and night. - One use
Defeat the Blue Dragon or Hand of Byzantium and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

Converts into The Princess or The Librarian

@N.1

The Librarian

Hand of Byzantium Social
Prestige (Passive) - Only up to two classes with Prestige may spawn; including the starting Blue Dragon or Hand of Byzantium class (if the starting Blue Dragon or Hand of Byzantium class has Prestige, their equivalent Unseen class cannot spawn). If the Librarian is converted from a Duchess , however, then they do not contribute to this limit; only starting classes do.
Righteous Access (Passive) - All Hand of Byzantium members can read the logs in the public log network. You may use both day abilities during the same day and both night abilities on the same night.
Archive (Day) - Invite a player to the log network. The player must accept before joining and can choose to leave at any time. You can only invite two players per day. - Infinite uses
Defender’s Notes (Day) - At the end of the night, you will obtain a copy of all messages in private shared chats you do not have access to. - 3 uses
Revoke (Night) - Remove a player from your log network. - Infinite uses
Dalliance (Night) - Choose a player. You will receive a grouping of two classes at the end of the night. One of those classes will be that player’s exact class. If you were converted from The Archivist , you may only use this ability on players inside your log network. - Infinite uses
Defeat the Unseen and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

this was a bit of work

my personal opinion is that
socialite is probably better than its unseen counterparts
agent is way different but since arbiter is gonna become the rolecop its probably better to not have it be a rolecop
watchman is just better than its unseen counterparts and is super strong
librarian isnt even an invest but converts from duchess (but hey a neighborizer is fun i guess)

so i guess my “invests might need to be changed heavily” conclusion was inaccurate (except probably for agent upon second look)

[Geyde]

Honestly
To butcher Syndicate or to change the name then butcher it

[Geyde]

That’s the question unless you want a clusterfuck
I’m all for clusterfuck personally, but people might not want to join that

[katze]

i mean its syndicate vs HoB

its gonna be a clusterfuck

[N.1]

I think the feeling was that clusterfuck was inevitable when I proposed bringing back the syndicate

[Geyde]

Yes, but society

[Geyde]

@N.1

I think the feeling was that clusterfuck was inevitable when I proposed bringing back the syndicate

If you want to go that route, I’ve got three recommendations:

• focus on removing unfun mechanics (such as Infinite anti-claim that has no penalty and can be used on softs)
• Don’t overcentralize power
• Banana

[Geyde]

Risk reward is hilarious and enjoyable

[katze]

@Geyde

(such as Infinite anti-claim that has no penalty and can be used on softs)

this is fine

this is not fine

[anon97870008]

Even if you remove all utterly unfair mechanics and even if you manage to somewhat balance it out, this game will be swingy as hell (which isn’t inherently bad, and I guess that’s kind of the goal if you want to create a high high power setup )

[Geyde]

I design many broken and swingy setups all the time
If people know that going in then there’s no reason not to go all the way

[Vulgard]

Note that I removed the Syndicate’s Omega Actions in these versions, but I gave them an assigned factional kill that replaces the killer’s night action if they are assigned the kill.

The Templar

Syndicate Killer
In Nomine Dei (Passive) - If you perform the factional kill then you will always bypass night immunity, healing, jailing, the Hunter’s Bear Companion, and the Knight’s Defend. You may also use both Purge the Sinners and Faith and Steel in the same day.
Purge the Sinners (Day) - Choose two players. You may make one of them start bleeding, and make another think they started bleeding. The true bleeding will kill the target in two nights if they are not healed. The fake bleeding will only inform the player that they were bled and do nothing else. (3 uses)
Faith and Steel (Day) - Kill yourself and target player in broad daylight. (1 use)
Divine Retribution (Night) - Only available on even nights. Attack a player who voted you at any point during the previous day. You do not receive bonuses from In Nomine Dei while using this ability.
Massacre (Night) - If you perform the factional kill tonight, you will also kill all of your target’s visitors. You do not receive bonuses from In Nomine Dei while using this ability. (1 use)
Defeat the Blue Dragon, all factions aligned with them, and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

The Confessor

Syndicate Investigative
Syndicate’s Watchmen (Passive) - At the end of each night, you automatically learn the names of all classes that visited you.
Contrition (Passive) - If you perform the factional kill, it will not count as a visit.
Omniscience (Day) - Choose another member of the Syndicate. At the beginning of the night, you will learn if any other day abilities were used on them and who used them, but not what they were. (3 uses)
Eyes of the Syndicate (Day) - At the end of the night, you will learn who visited a member of the Syndicate during the night, but not which member was visited. (2 uses)
Confession (Night) - Learn a player’s class.
Watchful Vigil (Night) - Learn who a player visited tonight and who visited them. (3 uses)
Defeat the Blue Dragon, all factions aligned with them, and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

The Harbinger

Syndicate Support
Omen of Remorse (Passive) - Whenever a player visits you, they become permanently framed (they will appear to investigators as members of the Syndicate).
Omen of Deceit (Passive) - You appear to investigators as a member of the Blue Dragon. You are also bleeding immune.
Dominance of Pestilence (Day) - All players who attempt to occupy or kill you tonight will start bleeding and their visit will be prevented. The bleeding will kill them in two nights if they are not healed. (2 uses)
Circle of War (Day) - Prevent another player from visiting and being visited tonight. (2 uses)
Grasp of Famine (Night) - Heal a player. They will also be immune to occupation and redirection tonight.
Banner of Death (Night) - Mark a player for death. All attacks that target a marked player are guaranteed to succeed. (1 use)
Defeat the Blue Dragon, all factions aligned with them, and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

The Zealot

Syndicate Offensive
Fanatical Zeal (Passive) - You are occupation and redirection immune. If anyone attempts to occupy or redirect you, you will be immediately informed. If you manage to redirect a player onto killing another, you will be informed and you will a gain a stack of Zeal. You can spend Zeal stacks during the night to occupy a player as an additional, separate night action.
Overwhelming Aura (Passive) - At the end of each night, you automatically learn who was successfully occupied, redirected, or prevented from visiting.
Force of Conviction (Day) - Choose two players. If the first player uses a day ability today, it will be redirected to the second player. If you choose the same player twice, they will be occupied until the end of the day instead. (3 uses)
Mirror of Faith (Day) - Choose a player. All other day actions used on them today will be automatically redirected to their users. (3 uses)
Might of Conviction (Night) - Choose two players. The first player will be redirected to the second. If you choose the same player twice, you will occupy them instead. You are only seen visiting the first player.
Works of Zeal (Night) - Swap two players. Every other player targeting one of them tonight will be redirected to the other, bypassing redirection immunity. You cannot target yourself. (2 uses)
Defeat the Blue Dragon, all factions aligned with them, and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

The Archon

Syndicate Social
Influence and Affluence (Passive) - During King elections, all votes for you count as three. As long as you are alive, if votes are tied between two or more players at the end of the day and one of those players is a member of the Syndicate, the random selection of who is lynched will never choose the Syndicate member.
Grand Archbishop (Passive) - As long as you are alive, all dead Syndicate members can still speak in the Syndicate chat. You may use both Mental Restructuring and Rapture during the same day.
Mental Restructuring (Day) - Link the minds of two players. Tonight, they will be able to talk to each other until the end of the night. At the end of the night, they will be removed from their chat and you will be added to it.
Rapture (Day) - Choose a player other than yourself. If they are lynched today, their class and logs will not be revealed. However, they will be revealed in the Syndicate chat. When you die, the class and logs of that player will be revealed alongside yours. (1 use)
Scales of the Syndicate (Night) - Choose two players other than yourself. Tomorrow, one fewer vote will be required to lynch the first player and one more vote will be required to lynch the second player. Both effects are silent.
Pearly Gates (Night) - Choose a dead Syndicate member. You may use any of their night abilities tonight. (1 use)
Defeat the Blue Dragon, all factions aligned with them, and any neutrals that seek to do you harm.

Obviously, replace Blue Dragon with HoB. That was my rebalancing idea back then. Probably doesn’t really work 100% here.

[Vulgard]

I also removed the lost wolf.