Please God keep it this way
Trust me Rope.
I tried VFR a lot when I began playing the Alpha.
Coming from ToS, I fully expected to show these newbies how to play a social deduction game.
Long story short, revealing everybodyâs roles is more detrimental to BD. Besides all the points I outlined in my VFR/VFC thread linked by Plex, you might not even have TIME to vote up every single player. Imagine not voting up the last 3 players of the game and they were the scum team. Free info for them with zero cost.
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I donât even want to calculate the odds of this, but they are probably very low.
Iâll be glad to. So there are 16 playes AT MAX. SO thats is what we will use We will also use the Unseen for simplicity. They have two people in the beginning. So 2 out of 16. There are 32 possible combinations so that is off the bat 12.5%. The the Unseen have 2 or 3 convert immunes, 2 if King is evil, 3 if the king isnât evil. So 3 out of 14 that is 21.42% chance of that being the one of the last bottom 3. So, MATHING INTENSIFIES it comes out to 8.92% of the bottom three being Unseen. The reason I didnât use cult is due to all the sacrifices taking place and that is way to confusing for EVERYBODY!
@Ami you are supposed to do 16 to the power of 2, not times.
Also, it is hard to account for the odds of unseen wanting to be grouped together by name.
Voting for Classes is bad. End of story.
This is a game of converting. If youâre anything that can be converted, youâre putting yourself at risk of being converted, thus, hindering your teams victory, or worst, your own chance at winning if scum are losing.
Like, 3. VFC/VFR is a cancer on Social Deductions games. I saw someone get banned on ToS for not VFRing. I mean thats retarded!
yeah, but increase BD chances!
I donât care if they lose as prince, only if blue dragon wins.
yeah, it is bad he/she got banned. doesnât mean VFC is bad, just that you shouldnât force someone to VFC.
I highly doubt that, they probably got banned for not claiming on the stand, which is gamethrowing if youâre about to die
I look around on the ban appeals to laugh. Sure enough they were there. Their appeal got denied like WTF?
How is making the uninformed majority into an informed majority a bad thing? Most of my arguments are going to be using TOS arguments copy+pasted (Town of Salem) just with the serial numbers filed off so to speak. The quoted bits are marked with quotation marks.
"Blue Dragon can totally use that information to their advantage as well.
Why everyone just assume evils/scum benefits from information? You reveal Prince(!)? Ok, not the greatest result ever obviously, but now a Knight, or Observer, or a Good King knows whoâs the Prince. Scum has to kill the Knight first if they want to get rid of the Prince.
If they try to convert, then kill Prince, itâs obvious whether Obs/Knight was converted because if Knight wasnât enforcer than he wouldâve protected Prince. If Obs was converted heâll have to make stuff up.
If scum claims something protective/observer, they canât kill the Prince if they donât want to be confirmed scum. A Good King surely would send a guard to protect the Prince, right?"
This is one of the infinite examples VFR does. Start watching what VFR gives to BD, instead of crying about what it gives to scum. Itâs a great way for BD to try and deduce what the hell is going on.
Itâs much less satisfying to sit around and wait for sheriff to find a Possessor or something, than it is to deduce voting patterns, see the validity of CCs and force everyone to be active and claiming and counter claiming roles, which is doubly useful in a game with alignment-changing roles"
âEven if you get a BD lynched, the votes will most likely reveal several evils who obviously will guilty. If you cannot get any information out of a misslynch, such as voting patterns, you are not a very good scumreader.â
Literally like a week ago, I used to hate VFR in social games, now I really enjoy it.
"Hereâs what Iâve learned about VFR:
VFR means different things to different people. This sometimes makes discussion difficult.
VFR (to some people) means demanding roles from 1, then 2, then 3, etc and lynching whoever doesnât comply.
Other people would say that picking anyone for any reason D2 and asking for a role is VFR. Based on CCs, voting patterns, and chat, BD asks suspicious people for role claims. Thereâs no ârealâ evidence, and you do lynch them if thereâs no claim at all (obviously) so this can also be considered VFR.
The first type honestly is pretty lazy, but it absolutely works
The second type can be manipulated by evils who step up and âleadâ the BD. The alternative is sitting and waiting for a Sheriff or something to get lucky
Itâs super boring when evils are all passive and/or outright give up. Itâs more difficult (and fun) when evils are good players and not only can claim a fake role, but can be convincing enough that they can direct the BD
Even fairly late game thereâs usually at least 2 people who havenât claimed yet, and theyâre not always the evil ones.
A convincing evil can push BD into lynching the wrong people and believing false information.
When you get an evil role, if you are bad at fake claims and acting convincing enough (like I am) VFR can absolutely suck. Once you get the hang of false claiming and pretending to be an active BD, VFR isnât that bad. Itâs a challenge at times, but it can be fun.
One thing to note is that if you want to claim a role convincingly, you have to be prepared to CC when someone else claims it. This is part of appearing as an active BD instead of an Unseen/Cultist.
If you act enough like a BD, people will believe unlikely claims. If I spoke up and acted like I was BD well enough to cause just enough doubt that they werenât willing to lynch me."
Being silent in a standard game early on isnât that scummy if all people are doing is just sitting around waiting for some Prince or Observer to say âI think dis guy must be Cult1!1!!â
Another bit: (Yes this is basically repeating myself with more copy+pasted stuff)
"It also reveals lots of information early so that protecting roles know who to protect and Investigatives know who to check. VFR forces evils to claim roles and be active so they canât just be lazy and hang back until they get majority. In a VFR group, everyone has to be active and act pro-BD or else youâll be scumread and be investigated or more likely, put up on trial.
By forcing evils to claim roles, you prevent them from being able to change their story willy-nilly. Good evils can take advantage of this to mislead BD by being indistinguishable from a BD (in terms of behaviour) so they donât get investigated and to pull off misslynch/es when they matter the most (two or so kills and/or converts kill off a BD majority).
So outing important roles are fine, there are protective roles and whatnot to protect you with the fear of Obsv watching you to deter any would-be attackers from attacking/converting you. Even a Cult canât convert everybody, and you can use all this information for both sides to deduce who is who. Itâs also unlikely for those roles to all get revealed because if theyâre not acting scummy, they probably shouldnât get voted up, at least maybe not early on"
"Day 2 VFR start is how it usually goes. It usually starts with someone putting forward a lead â fake or not â and the accused gets put up on trial. Then they claim, give a will, then get Pardoned. Then the votes and chat behaviours are checked to get scumreads. So no, itâs not random, even then, Itâs better to spend a day voting people up and getting lots of information than sitting there silently waiting for Paladins/Sherrifs etc. to do their magic.
Most evils stay silent all game and silently resign to a loss as opposed to actively chatting and misleading BD. The problem lies in the evils refusing to adapt.
Iâll give an example, remember Biology? Yeah, do you remember the bit about competition and survival of the fittest? VFR is something like that because competition drives innovation and brings the best players out on top (higher personal winrate). VFR forces evils to be active and to mislead BD and as a result of that, BD is forced to decide whoâs lying and whoâs not, since all the evils should now be acting seamlessly. If youâd like me to go into more depth about this, just ask.
That only happens on low-mid elo. Saying âVFR WE START FROM 1â is a terrible way to go about VFR and is one of the main reasons why VFR gets such a bad wrap. Noobies (in relation to higher elo) see that VFR is a good strategy but donât know how to lead a VFR game. And since most of the ranked playerbase is in the low-mid elo bracket, they get exposed to these bad VFR leaders, and when they inevitably lose, it bolsters their belief that VFR is a bad strategy."
Hereâs 2 links to TOS games to use as an example. Yes, I know people are like âUgh, not ToS!? This is Throne Of Lies and there are so many differences!â Fair point, there are many (such as Evil King auto-executing a person who got voted up before he could claim, but that means BD didnât consider that King could be Evil) but I think these games illustrate the more fun sides of VFR and how it can promote interesting gameplay.
https://youtu.be/f8LL5PfY7ds?t=1m49s A Godfather game by Okla Homa(you could watch all of his 3 uploads).
Hereâs a great aForger game(complete with classical music!), though him lying about his role apparently has got him falsely lynched in these games before. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3EYZ7qm9Ms
Apologies for the blatant stealing of other peopleâs arguments. Iâm quite sleep-deprived and probably came off quite condscending/patronizing. Lastly, my stuff is probably littered with incomplete sentences and Town of Salem terminology. I just hope most of the stuff here is truly applicable[EDIT 1: Applicable to Throne of Lies that is]. I shouldâve given credit to the stuff I presented, so sorry about that as well.
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+1 respect for putting a lot of effort into your post. I donât see that a lot on most forum debates
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