Watch Your Mouth!: Sophomore Year (3/17) - Day 5 - Planters (Mafia) Win!

[Whysper]

Though I can probably say that at this point, the only people in my town core would be you, Surge, and Derps. I have varying doubts about almost everyone else.

[Luxy]

So who is in your strong townreads but not your towncore then

[an_gorta_pratai]

@ChopChop

I think Alice might be scum individually.

Explain this thought

[an_gorta_pratai]

Call me crazy, but I don’t think it’s Whysper, looking back I don’t think scum Whysper put this much effort into Wild West FM

[Luxy]

Well they were never really pushed upon gorta, but it may be a point

[Appelsiini]

Wild West? What’s that? Never heard of it.

Also
Do you ever just not do anything for a while because you’re in everyone’s towncore and don’t want to get NKed so that you can lead the town later… but Whysper says no
Normally not this inactive though, I really were busy

[an_gorta_pratai]

@Appelsiini

Do you ever just not do anything for a while because you’re in everyone’s towncore and don’t want to get NKed so that you can lead the town later… but Whysper says no
Normally not this inactive though, I really were busy

maybe, I spent the evening playing Secret Hitler and hanging out with friends. like I said I am a lazy bastard

[an_gorta_pratai]

also effort posts incoming

[an_gorta_pratai]

Compare this

Wild West

@Whysper

I would say I currently TR Vulgard and Wazza the most. Their posts so far seem reasonable and helpful. And they have the general feel of the previous game I played with them where they were town.

There are a lot of vitriolic comments going around early, which always come off as wolfish to me by default, but I suppose some people just consider that their strategy. I want to take a closer look at Luxy and Geyde to see if they’ve actually started making useful comments.

@Whysper

ash - helping to solve
luxy - helping to solve
wazza - seems like frustrated town
gorta - tone feels same as SFoL63
intensify - can’t say much other than possibly confused town
sulit - early tone good
whysper - me trying the best I can to solve
eevee - started to interact more compared to previous player in slot
appel - originally seemed very pro-town
apprentice - possibly frustrated town, appears really convinced he found Seth as wolf and should get credit

@Whysper

I wanted to address some comments from Ash and others about my lack of posts. For D1, this was due to being out of town. For D2, it is mainly because I’m finding it rather difficult to say anything that seems constructive beyond what others are already saying. Yeah, I know that shouldn’t stop me from posting, and that’s something I need to work on.

When I first heard that this was a vanilla game and learned that meant no special mechanics, I was interested in how that could possibly play out. I thought for sure that you’d need at least some mech to distinguish people and allow for proving or disproving claims. A completely social reading game seemed rather difficult to comprehend, but I thought I should at least try one for the experience. I know that social reading and social solving are skills I need much work on.

And yeah, it is really difficult. Everything is based on tone and people’s past experiences with each other. I only have experience with a few people from SFoL63, so those have been a little easier to read. But everyone else is baffling. I often default to looking at certain people with aggressive behavior as wolfish, but I realize from my little experience and what others seem to say that aggressiveness can often be a trait of good town solvers. And other behavior like fluff-posting is often dismissed for certain people because that’s just who they are.

So I’ve been writing a few of my thoughts here and there, but I feel rather unskilled at some of the bigger thought exercises. I also don’t want to derail things when there are serious conversations going on. I’ll just continue with writing out my thoughts as best I can so that you can at least see what I’m thinking. Thanks for understanding.

My next post will be some stuff I wrote up during the night phase.

@Whysper

Yeah, I agree. Wazza said some stuff about Vulgard too I thought worth considering.

@Whysper

And Apprentice made some good points about re-examining assumptions about players.

@Whysper

I think I’ll stay with my vote on Appel. I don’t really feel comfortable with a vote on Ash or Wazza. I know you are more inclined to think Ash is wolf, but he still gives me town vibes from how invested he is with the game and solving stuff. Wazza hasn’t come back and tried to help anymore. But he could just be frustrated town. So while I could see either Ash or Wazza as wolf, I am so conflicted that I don’t know who to place as more wolfy than the other.

To this

This game

@Whysper

I’m online now as well. From a quick scroll through, I saw that the bomb exploded, so I guess safe for today.

@Whysper

Going to read through the posts while I get ready this morning.

@Whysper

@Marshal

I request for strong members, or men who are easily identifiable alignment-wise attempt to circumvent the killpower, whereas “LHF” may attempt to die via killpower. If we do, today, circumvent the killpower for at least 24 (minutes x 60), I may construct a PoE of members who may try to killpower themselves.

Yes, I agree with this. Even though I got here after the bomb already exploded, I plan to just speak normally throughout. I’m just one of the regular students and will try to help the best I can for others to continue forward.

@Whysper

Okay, I was concerned about whether quoting someone from D1 could trigger the bomb on D2 if they had said the new D2 word. But I asked the hosts and they said it wouldn’t. But it would trigger if you are intentionally trying to piece together snippets from posts to bypass the bomb.

@Whysper

Oh, I was actually wondering how new he is. He acted like a newbie in some regards, but he also talks about analyzing people as towny and scummy, so I don’t get the impression he’s completely new to the general game. Also, he voted for Derps pretty early on in his 4th post. That’s interesting. He gave no reasoning (which I think I will ask after this).

Also, Derps seems to be on a few lists for hard-to-read. So I think he might easily be put in the PoE.

@Whysper

This makes me think Esquiddy isn’t very new. How can he say that Derps is always suspicious?

@Whysper

Haha yeah, I was surprised it was still there in the real game thread and not just in the signups. I copied the list from here and was like “huh?” but then realized it was you and replaced the name.

@Whysper

@Alice

Also I’m fairly uneasy on how Whysper has spent much of the game casting doubt and trying to negate other peoples’ townreads rather than solve slots for herself tbh.

Let’s just say that I feel uneasy from my past game experience with the tendency for people to be so sure of their reads on people as town and where that ends up hurting town. And I’m also uneasy with how those same people will be resistant to any questioning of the status quo as appears to be happening here.

I actually treasure my wolf game experience in Wild West not simply for the win, but even more so for the wonderful insight it gives on people and their thought processes. It’s fascinating to see first hand where people are going off the trails in their reasoning and assumptions.

So I am not attempting to derail things but simply to make sure we keep an open mind. I do not have any strong scum reads at this point, but slowly I’m seeing some people move out of null range into town lean or town read for me. However, I’m keeping my eye out for signs of people possibly mistakenly identified as town based on meta. Please don’t attempt to stifle such open-mindedness.

@Whysper

BTW I find it quite interesting that Alice criticizes people like Wazza for metareading people after only three games, yet freely does so herself and also says nothing about Luxy doing so.

@Alice

Because people on this site need to stop doing shit like metareading people who’ve yet to wolf or meta’ing people after only three games.

@Alice

I re-read SFoL63 and she’s more decisive and direct there while here she’s less proactive and more indirect and doesn’t really have the broad of a scope.

@Alice

I still think that Fol30 and SFol63 were miles more villagery than her ISO here.

@Luxy

It doesn’t make what Alice has said incorrect though, and I’m fairly certain she did more solving than three slots like 10 posts in, in both SFoL63 and FoL30 than in her 43 posts here tbh

@Luxy

If anything, the worst evidence of this is actually by meta as she’s done less solving here than in the previous FoLs she was in.

Luxy even says he’s using meta on me!

in general is far less solve-y than in FoL30 or SFoL63.

@Whysper

@an_gorta_pratai

Whysper voted mole with the reason “I found his posts suspicious” and never explained why

Actually I did explain why in a couple follow-up posts.

@Whysper

I’m still not at my laptop yet so can’t easily go through posts, but my reasoning on Mole was from posts and behavior that I’ve seen others comment on as well since then. I’m in agreement that he’s the best lynch for flipping wolf today.

Sure, I understand. I’m at my laptop now, so I went through a bit quickly to point out my earlier reasoning.

First, Moleland doesn’t really do much early on other than a weird examination of Troch’s poetry.

Then later when Jane is questioning me on some reads, he inserts a weak comment of agreement.

@Moleland

75% I’m confused by too tbh. Good spot

So I asked him for a better explanation on his own thoughts.

@Whysper

Confused how so? Could you explain more?

And he gave another weak answer and avoided giving his own thoughts. Seems like he really has none and was just trying to go along with questioning against me.

@Moleland

Well…i interpreted what you said similarly to Jane.

Then he was scumreading Wazza just for forgetting Luxy on his list. Then the OMGUS vote against Jane for voting him. And now just recently an OMGUS vote on me.

It really seems like he’s just trying to cast shade on people for weak reasons just to find a mislynch.

@Whysper

Okay, it appears that for me to help with solving, I need to work on convincing everyone that I was put into the PoE for erroneous reasoning. So I am going to work on that by reviewing the 3 main cases set against me. I’m mostly setting aside the meta discussion since most agree that it should only be used as a supplement and self meta-analysis is problematic anyway.

Here are the 3 main cases summarized. I will discuss them in more detail in separate posts so that this one isn’t so long and to make it easier to reply to each specific case.

Case A: Wild West Discussion

I made a statement that Wild West shows the possibility of deep wolves and that we should keep an open mind. Luxy contends that I’m lying about Wild West and that there were no deep wolves, so I must be wolf to make this claim.

Case B: Disputing Alice

Alice made a statement about Esquiddy that he should be town-leaned for questioning why I town-leaned Derps. I commented that I think such a question is NAI.

Case C: Esquiddy Questioning

I was confused about whether Esquiddy was completely new or had some experience, so I pursued a line of questioning. I was especially concerned that he quickly voted for Derps, which seemed odd if he was completely new. Through the line of questioning, it was revealed that Esquiddy knows Derps IRL and had previously played or spectated a couple games.

@Whysper

Case A: Wild West Discussion

In the Wild West discussion, Luxy is focusing on the wrong question. He is looking at the question of whether Wild West did contain deep wolves, and if not, that I must be lying and therefore a wolf. But that’s the wrong question. The question should be whether I was making that statement about Wild West as town or as wolf.

T!Whysper

In the T!Whysper world, it doesn’t matter if it is objectively true that Wild West contained deep wolves. I was making the statement from my POV that I believed there were deep wolves. I was basing this on the fact that Cent and the other wolves all believed Cent was a deep wolf as well as Universal to some extent. Town leaders like Vulgard had placed Cent in their town core most of the game.

So believing that deep wolves were possible, I was trying to make a helpful suggestion to keep an open mind. Now some may contend that this suggestion is bad. I may be willing to agree that it is unwise given that it obviously triggers contempt in some people. I will certainly reconsider this for future games. However, making this bad suggestion does not mean that I’m a wolf. It is just as easily if not more likely that I’m just town making a bad suggestion.

W!Whysper

In the W!Whysper world, Luxy is claiming that it’s obvious that Wild West had no deep wolf. He is suggesting that I’m intentionally lying to push a call for a deep wolf hunt. Now does this make sense? If I was a wolf, why would I along with my wolf partners try out this tactic of lying about Wild West to start a deep wolf hunt? Why take this risk of getting called out for lying and completely invalidating my point about deep wolves? Why even bring up something so inherently flawed and draw unwanted attention as it has obviously done?

Conclusion

So which seems more likely? That I’m T!Whysper who believed something even if possibly wrong and made a suggestion? Or that I’m W!Whysper with partners who conceived a plan for me to try using an easily uncovered lie to push an agenda for deep wolves that would only draw attention to myself?

[quote=“Whysper, post:1529, topic:83624, full:true”]
Case B: Disputing Alice

Alice made this statement about Esquiddy that he should be town-leaned for questioning why I town-leaned Derps.

@Alice

@Esquiddy

@Whysper

SirDerpsAlot - confuses me with his play style, though so far I think I’d town lean him
[/quote]

Question, why do you town lean him?

Esquiddy’s curiousity towards Derps kind of looks like it comes from someone who has no idea what Derps’ alignment would be. Wouldn’t lynch there today.

I followed up with a comment that I didn’t think such a question was AI.

@Whysper

I’m not sure that I’d read it that way. Could also be an attempt to question why Derps would be out of the PoE. I’d say NAI.

Alice contends that my comment is an attempt to negate her town read.

T!Whysper

In the T!Whysper world, I am saying that it is just what it is. I’ve seen people comment on others’ reasoning to say whether it makes sense or not. I was simply learning from this and trying to help by indicating that this itself seemed NAI. I wasn’t saying that Esquiddy couldn’t be town for other reasons. Just that this reasoning was flawed, which Appel agreed with.

@Appelsiini

I agree with this

I thought another person agreed as well, but I’m having trouble finding the quote. But really that doesn’t matter as far as my belief that it was NAI and I was commenting.

W!Whysper

In the W!Whysper world, they would have people believe that I thought it wise to question Alice and incur her backlash. Again, that somehow drawing attention by going against Alice would be helpful in some way. Does this even make sense?

Conclusion

Which is the bigger leap? To assume that I was simply T!Whysper trying to help and point out that there is a flaw in reasoning? Or that I’m W!Whysper who would be bold enough to confront Alice by questioning her reads and therefore draw her attention to myself?

@Whysper

Case C: Esquiddy Questioning

I asked Esquiddy a series of questions early in the thread.

T!Whysper

In the T!Whysper world, I was confused about whether Esquiddy was completely new or had some experience, so I pursued a line of questioning. I was especially concerned that he quickly voted for Derps with no reasoning, which seemed odd if he was completely new.

Through my line of questioning, it was revealed that Esquiddy knows Derps IRL and had previously played or spectated a couple games. So he wasn’t completely new, but relatively new. And his vote on Derps was due to him really only knowing him in the game and always thinking Derps is scummy.

W!Whysper

In the W!Whysper world, Alice and Luxy would have you believe that I asked these questions with the purpose of throwing shade on Esquiddy. Or just to look like I was solving.

Conclusion

I can only suggest that you read through the questioning and see whether this appears to be T!Whysper with legitimate questions or W!Whysper with an agenda to shade Esquiddy. Marshal summarized things fairly well in a post.

1, sure, that fits the bill 2 is literally admitting she is wrong is mentioning derps/esquiddy knowing each other IRL there’s 1 post. 1 post. 1 post and not the 21 like you implied is preeeeeeety hyperbolic my dude. Literally just saying she’s never played with esquid Saying something esquid did is NAI Sure, that could be implying esquid is a good push It was just recognizing that esquid could be coached. reaaaal strech but maybe. I’ll give you this even if I disagree. Ad…

@Whysper

No, I will do it if it helps best. I am a little frustrated that I’m trying to put work into clearing myself but that it is simply being viewed as all fakeable. But I’ll do this if it is the way to clear me and help town out. I will first update my reads.

@Whysper

So let me spew this forth before I die…

Okay, here are my reads. I admit I haven’t been able to spend a lot of time reviewing more because I’ve been battling this push on me. That’s part of why I’m so frustrated with it. It’s completely exaggerated based on a misrepresentation of my words. And it has basically put a stop on my helping to find wolves because I have to defend and anything further I say to help with questions is just dismissed as more wolf performance. It seems that putting work into trying to clear myself isn’t viewed as worthy. At this point the assumption is that everything can be faked without even examining the motivations for faking things.

Town
Whysper
Appelsini
Trochilidae
Marshal
Wazza

Town Lean
Alice
SirDerpsAlot
Surge
An_gorta_pratai
Insanity

Null
Luxy - I can’t decide if this push is wolf or unreasonable town, so stuck in null

Scum Lean
Esquiddy - has pretty much dropped off from doing anything and seems to be giving up

PokemonKidRyan - my earlier read was null to possibly SL for the weird discussion on the word “wolf” that he claims was RT. Something just seems off, so possibly SL. I haven’t seen anything since then to move this up, though as I said, I’ve also been distracted with the push on me.

[Insanity]

@DatBird

|Wazza|Insanity

I see that I am still voting a dead body.

[Whysper]

@Luxy

So who is in your strong townreads but not your towncore then

My strong TRs are my town core. But for TLs, there’s Tro and Gorta. I’m currently doing some re-evaluation though based on a new way of looking at things.

[Whysper]

@Luxy

Well they were never really pushed upon gorta, but it may be a point

You know, the fact that you gave this even minor concession gives me hope that you might be town, Luxy. I get that you really don’t like me. That’s fine. But once I flip town, I ask you to please keep an open-mind about the situation we’re in.

[Insanity]

Whysper doesn’t looks to be scum here.

And well, it seems like I was back in everyone’s PoE again.

[Trochilidae]

honestly i don’t think you’re scum here, this is entirely different from Wild West, your frustration looked genuine and you’ve started to post much better content.
gorta i’d likely townlean as well, though this isn’t quite AI i like that they’ve been putting in more effort than past games i’ve seen and are actually trying to solve here.
insanity though i can’t say i like at the moment, their apology post for the EoD looked far too formal and performative and they’ve been a bit frozen so far?

[Insanity]

@Trochilidae

insanity though i can’t say i like at the moment, their apology post for the EoD looked far too formal and performative and they’ve seen a bit frozen so far?

That EoD play makes me really unable to sleep that night, so…yeah.

And well, regarding a little bit frozen - I am seriously trying to do something, but problem is that I basically find everyone in like the town lean side.

And then everybody that I scumread basically turns up to be town…so there is that.

[Trochilidae]

do you have a readlist at the moment? if not, would you mind making one when you have the time? i’d like to see your view of the game right now

[Insanity]

T

---

Insanity
Surge

Appelsiini
SDA
Trochilidae
Esquiddy
Gorta
Whysper

Marshal
Luxy
Alice
PKR

xxxxx
xxxxx

S

I just didn’t really know anymore. I am basically putting every players that I found tough to read at null, and then everyone else at townlean.

[Trochilidae]

now that i think about it, i’d like to hear more from PKR on why exactly he SR’s surge. he seems to be well in his town meta here and you can’t exactly vote a player just for annoying you? surge is apparently easy to meta-read so surely multiple people would’ve pointed out if he was scum here.
but thank you insanity, i’ll do another iso-dive on you in the morning.

[Insanity]

PKR scumread Surge for basically doing nothing .-.

[Insanity]

@PokemonKidRyan

/Vote Surge

Alright dude, I have dealt with this shit yesterday and for a bit today already.
If you would like to do literally fucking ANYTHING useful instead of being a broken record, then that would be most welcome.

No offence.

@PokemonKidRyan

You might have done some other things, but the amount of times you have said the same thing is absolutely inane and I cannot comprehend why you would say it time and time and time again.

If you have the time to consistently post that which does nothing then you have the time to actually do some shit that I might eventually respect you for.

I want to see you shine in this game, not do the same shit different day.

Which is…ehh.