Watch Your Mouth!: Sophomore Year (3/17) - Day 5 - Planters (Mafia) Win!

an_gorta_pratai · September 10, 2020, 5:15am

Call me crazy, but I don’t think it’s Whysper, looking back I don’t think scum Whysper put this much effort into Wild West FM

Luxy · September 10, 2020, 5:19am

Well they were never really pushed upon gorta, but it may be a point

Appelsiini · September 10, 2020, 5:20am

Wild West? What’s that? Never heard of it.

Also
Do you ever just not do anything for a while because you’re in everyone’s towncore and don’t want to get NKed so that you can lead the town later… but Whysper says no
Normally not this inactive though, I really were busy

an_gorta_pratai · September 10, 2020, 5:22am

maybe, I spent the evening playing Secret Hitler and hanging out with friends. ~~like I said I am a lazy bastard~~

an_gorta_pratai · September 10, 2020, 5:23am

also effort posts incoming

an_gorta_pratai · September 10, 2020, 5:35am

Compare this

Wild West

Wild West FM - Day 5 - Mafia Win!

I wanted to address some comments from Ash and others about my lack of posts. For D1, this was due to being out of town. For D2, it is mainly because I’m finding it rather difficult to say anything that seems constructive beyond what others are already saying. Yeah, I know that shouldn’t stop me from posting, and that’s something I need to work on.

When I first heard that this was a vanilla game and learned that meant no special mechanics, I was interested in how that could possibly play out. I thought for sure that you’d need at least some mech to distinguish people and allow for proving or disproving claims. A completely social reading game seemed rather difficult to comprehend, but I thought I should at least try one for the experience. I know that social reading and social solving are skills I need much work on.

And yeah, it is really difficult. Everything is based on tone and people’s past experiences with each other. I only have experience with a few people from SFoL63, so those have been a little easier to read. But everyone else is baffling. I often default to looking at certain people with aggressive behavior as wolfish, but I realize from my little experience and what others seem to say that aggressiveness can often be a trait of good town solvers. And other behavior like fluff-posting is often dismissed for certain people because that’s just who they are.

So I’ve been writing a few of my thoughts here and there, but I feel rather unskilled at some of the bigger thought exercises. I also don’t want to derail things when there are serious conversations going on. I’ll just continue with writing out my thoughts as best I can so that you can at least see what I’m thinking. Thanks for understanding.

My next post will be some stuff I wrote up during the night phase.

To this

This game

Whysper:

Alice:

Also I’m fairly uneasy on how Whysper has spent much of the game casting doubt and trying to negate other peoples’ townreads rather than solve slots for herself tbh.

Let’s just say that I feel uneasy from my past game experience with the tendency for people to be so sure of their reads on people as town and where that ends up hurting town. And I’m also uneasy with how those same people will be resistant to any questioning of the status quo as appears to be happening here.

I actually treasure my wolf game experience in Wild West not simply for the win, but even more so for the wonderful insight it gives on people and their thought processes. It’s fascinating to see first hand where people are going off the trails in their reasoning and assumptions.

So I am not attempting to derail things but simply to make sure we keep an open mind. I do not have any strong scum reads at this point, but slowly I’m seeing some people move out of null range into town lean or town read for me. However, I’m keeping my eye out for signs of people possibly mistakenly identified as town based on meta. Please don’t attempt to stifle such open-mindedness.

Whysper:

BTW I find it quite interesting that Alice criticizes people like Wazza for metareading people after only three games, yet freely does so herself and also says nothing about Luxy doing so.

Alice:

Because people on this site need to stop doing shit like metareading people who’ve yet to wolf or meta’ing people after only three games.

Alice:

I re-read SFoL63 and she’s more decisive and direct there while here she’s less proactive and more indirect and doesn’t really have the broad of a scope.

Alice:

I still think that Fol30 and SFol63 were miles more villagery than her ISO here.

Luxy:

It doesn’t make what Alice has said incorrect though, and I’m fairly certain she did more solving than three slots like 10 posts in, in both SFoL63 and FoL30 than in her 43 posts here tbh

Luxy:

If anything, the worst evidence of this is actually by meta as she’s done less solving here than in the previous FoLs she was in.

Luxy even says he’s using meta on me!

in general is far less solve-y than in FoL30 or SFoL63.

Whysper:

an_gorta_pratai:

Whysper voted mole with the reason “I found his posts suspicious” and never explained why

Actually I did explain why in a couple follow-up posts.

Whysper:

I’m still not at my laptop yet so can’t easily go through posts, but my reasoning on Mole was from posts and behavior that I’ve seen others comment on as well since then. I’m in agreement that he’s the best lynch for flipping wolf today.

Sure, I understand. I’m at my laptop now, so I went through a bit quickly to point out my earlier reasoning.

First, Moleland doesn’t really do much early on other than a weird examination of Troch’s poetry.

Then later when Jane is questioning me on some reads, he inserts a weak comment of agreement.

Moleland:

75% I’m confused by too tbh. Good spot

So I asked him for a better explanation on his own thoughts.

Whysper:

Confused how so? Could you explain more?

And he gave another weak answer and avoided giving his own thoughts. Seems like he really has none and was just trying to go along with questioning against me.

Moleland:

Well…i interpreted what you said similarly to Jane.

Then he was scumreading Wazza just for forgetting Luxy on his list. Then the OMGUS vote against Jane for voting him. And now just recently an OMGUS vote on me.

It really seems like he’s just trying to cast shade on people for weak reasons just to find a mislynch.

Whysper:

Okay, it appears that for me to help with solving, I need to work on convincing everyone that I was put into the PoE for erroneous reasoning. So I am going to work on that by reviewing the 3 main cases set against me. I’m mostly setting aside the meta discussion since most agree that it should only be used as a supplement and self meta-analysis is problematic anyway.

Here are the 3 main cases summarized. I will discuss them in more detail in separate posts so that this one isn’t so long and to make it easier to reply to each specific case.

Case A: Wild West Discussion

I made a statement that Wild West shows the possibility of deep wolves and that we should keep an open mind. Luxy contends that I’m lying about Wild West and that there were no deep wolves, so I must be wolf to make this claim.

Case B: Disputing Alice

Alice made a statement about Esquiddy that he should be town-leaned for questioning why I town-leaned Derps. I commented that I think such a question is NAI.

Case C: Esquiddy Questioning

I was confused about whether Esquiddy was completely new or had some experience, so I pursued a line of questioning. I was especially concerned that he quickly voted for Derps, which seemed odd if he was completely new. Through the line of questioning, it was revealed that Esquiddy knows Derps IRL and had previously played or spectated a couple games.

Whysper:

Case A: Wild West Discussion

In the Wild West discussion, Luxy is focusing on the wrong question. He is looking at the question of whether Wild West did contain deep wolves, and if not, that I must be lying and therefore a wolf. But that’s the wrong question. The question should be whether I was making that statement about Wild West as town or as wolf.

T!Whysper

In the T!Whysper world, it doesn’t matter if it is objectively true that Wild West contained deep wolves. I was making the statement from my POV that I believed there were deep wolves. I was basing this on the fact that Cent and the other wolves all believed Cent was a deep wolf as well as Universal to some extent. Town leaders like Vulgard had placed Cent in their town core most of the game.

So believing that deep wolves were possible, I was trying to make a helpful suggestion to keep an open mind. Now some may contend that this suggestion is bad. I may be willing to agree that it is unwise given that it obviously triggers contempt in some people. I will certainly reconsider this for future games. However, making this bad suggestion does not mean that I’m a wolf. It is just as easily if not more likely that I’m just town making a bad suggestion.

W!Whysper

In the W!Whysper world, Luxy is claiming that it’s obvious that Wild West had no deep wolf. He is suggesting that I’m intentionally lying to push a call for a deep wolf hunt. Now does this make sense? If I was a wolf, why would I along with my wolf partners try out this tactic of lying about Wild West to start a deep wolf hunt? Why take this risk of getting called out for lying and completely invalidating my point about deep wolves? Why even bring up something so inherently flawed and draw unwanted attention as it has obviously done?

Conclusion

So which seems more likely? That I’m T!Whysper who believed something even if possibly wrong and made a suggestion? Or that I’m W!Whysper with partners who conceived a plan for me to try using an easily uncovered lie to push an agenda for deep wolves that would only draw attention to myself?

[quote=“Whysper, post:1529, topic:83624, full:true”]
Case B: Disputing Alice

Alice made this statement about Esquiddy that he should be town-leaned for questioning why I town-leaned Derps.

Alice:

Esquiddy:

Whysper:

SirDerpsAlot - confuses me with his play style, though so far I think I’d town lean him
[/quote]

Question, why do you town lean him?

Esquiddy’s curiousity towards Derps kind of looks like it comes from someone who has no idea what Derps’ alignment would be. Wouldn’t lynch there today.

I followed up with a comment that I didn’t think such a question was AI.

Whysper:

I’m not sure that I’d read it that way. Could also be an attempt to question why Derps would be out of the PoE. I’d say NAI.

Alice contends that my comment is an attempt to negate her town read.

T!Whysper

In the T!Whysper world, I am saying that it is just what it is. I’ve seen people comment on others’ reasoning to say whether it makes sense or not. I was simply learning from this and trying to help by indicating that this itself seemed NAI. I wasn’t saying that Esquiddy couldn’t be town for other reasons. Just that this reasoning was flawed, which Appel agreed with.

Appelsiini:

I agree with this

I thought another person agreed as well, but I’m having trouble finding the quote. But really that doesn’t matter as far as my belief that it was NAI and I was commenting.

W!Whysper

In the W!Whysper world, they would have people believe that I thought it wise to question Alice and incur her backlash. Again, that somehow drawing attention by going against Alice would be helpful in some way. Does this even make sense?

Conclusion

Which is the bigger leap? To assume that I was simply T!Whysper trying to help and point out that there is a flaw in reasoning? Or that I’m W!Whysper who would be bold enough to confront Alice by questioning her reads and therefore draw her attention to myself?

Whysper:

Case C: Esquiddy Questioning

I asked Esquiddy a series of questions early in the thread.

T!Whysper

In the T!Whysper world, I was confused about whether Esquiddy was completely new or had some experience, so I pursued a line of questioning. I was especially concerned that he quickly voted for Derps with no reasoning, which seemed odd if he was completely new.

Through my line of questioning, it was revealed that Esquiddy knows Derps IRL and had previously played or spectated a couple games. So he wasn’t completely new, but relatively new. And his vote on Derps was due to him really only knowing him in the game and always thinking Derps is scummy.

W!Whysper

In the W!Whysper world, Alice and Luxy would have you believe that I asked these questions with the purpose of throwing shade on Esquiddy. Or just to look like I was solving.

Conclusion

I can only suggest that you read through the questioning and see whether this appears to be T!Whysper with legitimate questions or W!Whysper with an agenda to shade Esquiddy. Marshal summarized things fairly well in a post.

1, sure, that fits the bill 2 is literally admitting she is wrong is mentioning derps/esquiddy knowing each other IRL there’s 1 post. 1 post. 1 post and not the 21 like you implied is preeeeeeety hyperbolic my dude. Literally just saying she’s never played with esquid Saying something esquid did is NAI Sure, that could be implying esquid is a good push It was just recognizing that esquid could be coached. reaaaal strech but maybe. I’ll give you this even if I disagree. Ad…

Whysper:

So let me spew this forth before I die…

Okay, here are my reads. I admit I haven’t been able to spend a lot of time reviewing more because I’ve been battling this push on me. That’s part of why I’m so frustrated with it. It’s completely exaggerated based on a misrepresentation of my words. And it has basically put a stop on my helping to find wolves because I have to defend and anything further I say to help with questions is just dismissed as more wolf performance. It seems that putting work into trying to clear myself isn’t viewed as worthy. At this point the assumption is that everything can be faked without even examining the motivations for faking things.

Town
Whysper
Appelsini
Trochilidae
Marshal
Wazza

Town Lean
Alice
SirDerpsAlot
Surge
An_gorta_pratai
Insanity

Null
Luxy - I can’t decide if this push is wolf or unreasonable town, so stuck in null

Scum Lean
Esquiddy - has pretty much dropped off from doing anything and seems to be giving up

PokemonKidRyan - my earlier read was null to possibly SL for the weird discussion on the word “wolf” that he claims was RT. Something just seems off, so possibly SL. I haven’t seen anything since then to move this up, though as I said, I’ve also been distracted with the push on me.

Insanity · September 10, 2020, 5:37am

I see that I am still voting a dead body.

Whysper · September 10, 2020, 5:51am

My strong TRs are my town core. But for TLs, there’s Tro and Gorta. I’m currently doing some re-evaluation though based on a new way of looking at things.

Whysper · September 10, 2020, 5:55am

You know, the fact that you gave this even minor concession gives me hope that you might be town, Luxy. I get that you really don’t like me. That’s fine. But once I flip town, I ask you to please keep an open-mind about the situation we’re in.

Insanity · September 10, 2020, 5:56am

Whysper doesn’t looks to be scum here.

And well, it seems like I was back in everyone’s PoE again.

Trochilidae · September 10, 2020, 6:02am

honestly i don’t think you’re scum here, this is entirely different from Wild West, your frustration looked genuine and you’ve started to post much better content.
gorta i’d likely townlean as well, though this isn’t quite AI i like that they’ve been putting in more effort than past games i’ve seen and are actually trying to solve here.
insanity though i can’t say i like at the moment, their apology post for the EoD looked far too formal and performative and they’ve been a bit frozen so far?

Insanity · September 10, 2020, 6:03am

~~That EoD play makes me really unable to sleep that night, so…yeah.~~

And well, regarding a little bit frozen - I am seriously trying to do something, but problem is that I basically find everyone in like the town lean side.

And then everybody that I scumread basically turns up to be town…so there is that.

Trochilidae · September 10, 2020, 6:05am

do you have a readlist at the moment? if not, would you mind making one when you have the time? i’d like to see your view of the game right now

Insanity · September 10, 2020, 6:09am

T

Insanity
Surge

Appelsiini
SDA
Trochilidae
Esquiddy
Gorta
Whysper

Marshal
Luxy
Alice
PKR

xxxxx
xxxxx

S

I just didn’t really know anymore. I am basically putting every players that I found tough to read at null, and then everyone else at townlean.

Trochilidae · September 10, 2020, 6:13am

now that i think about it, i’d like to hear more from PKR on why exactly he SR’s surge. he seems to be well in his town meta here and you can’t exactly vote a player just for annoying you? surge is apparently easy to meta-read so surely multiple people would’ve pointed out if he was scum here.
but thank you insanity, i’ll do another iso-dive on you in the morning.

Insanity · September 10, 2020, 6:14am

PKR scumread Surge for basically doing nothing .-.

Insanity · September 10, 2020, 6:14am

Which is…ehh.

an_gorta_pratai · September 10, 2020, 6:53am

This opening is very NAI in my opinion

This is their first interaction with Eli

I this is a semi villagery thought. I know if I was a wolf I would scare people into speaking in various different versions of English to sow discord.

They also suggest the word bank, could be performative, but I don’t know

In my opinion PKR’s reads are the scummiest parts of a very null slot. Like some of these just seem forced

Ok, so this is interesting. PKR starts out claiming the wolves are in low posters, but then starts up with deep wolf paranoia d2. I hate sudden changes like this with no explanation. Alice did something similar regarding me and some others in SFoL 63

@PokemonKidRyan did you ever do those ISO deep dives?

It is reads like this that make me kind of SR PKR here. Why is PKR voting an obvious towny just because this person isn’t doing much?

I don’t think this is a terrible thought on the surface, but he really gives no reasoning and there isn’t much evidence to support that this is true.

Like this is such a complete narrative change for PKR and it has almost no progression and nothing to back it up

Conclusion
This is a PoE spot with some wolf equity in my opinion. I think PKR’s reads are semi fake and everything he has done is very fakable. I wouldn’t have a problem with this slot going today.

Whysper · September 10, 2020, 6:59am

Gorta, I’ve been getting highly suspicious of Marshal as well. You say that you see a pattern from previous games you’ve played with him? Did you play with him as wolf before?

an_gorta_pratai · September 10, 2020, 7:04am

I don’t know, it’s a possible pattern