I’ma just name all 4 sinarios for our convenience:
1 vs 2 = Standard Accusation (or just Accusation with no prefix)
1 vs 4 = Misguided Accusation
3 vs 2 = Bus Accusation
3 vs 4 = Frame Accusation
Remove the term accusation if you want
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The Scorneds frame gives you a Misguided accusation while the scorned herself gives a Frame accusation. Both of these are important because they look identical to an outsider
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I personally think Scorned is mechanically fine (although it needs some powers) without frame.
The real problem is for the misguided accuser. When your power is almost always correct, and then the game does a complete turn and lies to you.
If Frame really is so important, there should be more of it so the game doesn’t feel like you were screwed on just one specific night.
Nonono. Frame isn’t just important because it throws off real Investigatives. Rather another reason it is important is because it “throws off” fake invests. Even if it fails it makes the risk easier to take which further makes it easier to survive and accusation ect.
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Aka: Less misguided Accusations make Frame accusations more risky. This means there is less of them which leaves us with just Standard and bus accusations. In either case I won’t bet on the defendents survival
i honestly disagree with retribution i love it fits hunter too
I agree with you on mindwarp and frame tho
Edit: after reading the comments I changed my mind about frame and mindwarp, edit: on hunter also it’s a good punishment for killing the class like poor fellow and loyal subjects and it can even be a gift like killing an evil
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? no one ever claims hunter unless true hunter, converted one, fool, or an idiot, even then you can let a class like CW take the hit
Mindwarp and Frame are very problematic.
That they hit is so rare that it is always the best idea for a sheriff to assume it was correct.
That the MM comes up as innocent- you do have this in any game and it is standard to assume that no one with innocent results the first 3 nights is cleared for MM.
Similarily it is so rare that the invest who accused is normally killed by prince!
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I think that shouldn’t be the case with the Hunter.
We are kind of low on good claims right now.
nah I think hunter should stay unique, and why even try to change a class that is unclaimable when you can add more classes that are claimable? I like hunter’s passive as is, maybe you can change it to being something like you are unable to vote for a person because you killed a hunter
I didn’t say it shouldn’t be unique.
But it’s an easy way to free some claim space.
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I agree that hunter shouldn’t have it, but it should be on knight. Retribution prevents players from exeing easy claims.
Magic barrier. Plus, if someone is a confirmed investigator then mind warp is likely to be used on them. If someone says “Check X”, then they could be framed.
It would be useless if they get notified. And not notifying them is part of their point, it makes confirmed investigatives less trustworthy.
Also, frame and mind warp give evils counter play to being accused.
The same could be said about frame and mind warp.
Scorned doesn’t help against confirmed investigatives. Scorned is also unique(though it shouldn’t be).
Hunter being unique and confirmable makes it hard to fake claim, not retribution. And hunter is difficult to fake claim, not impossible.
It would be useless if it notified them, but it sucks if it doesn’t. So we should remove it all together.
I have never seen it believed.
It discredits unconfirmed investigatives. Confirmed ones can be converted.
Retribution makes it impossible not to want to get lynched. If 2 Hunters claim, they just vote each other and problem solved.
This is being said about Frame and Mindwarp
Just because you haven’t seen it happen doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.
Barrier and smite prevent conversions, and scout detects conversions, so not always.
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Even if it does, it strictly shouldn’t be. Illusionist rarely shows up in any game, since it needs to be an unseen game, they need to convert the Illusionist, who must not get promoted or die instantly.
And Frame on Scorned and Fool can only be used twice per person with it, on very specific people. In addition, you need to time it when they are investigated.
So you should never believe that defense.
What would you replace Frame with?
Anything else. I put this in General to explain why I think it’s a problem.
There are alternatives, even if I can’t think of anything off the top of my head.
This isn’t a suggestion, just my opinion.
Your suggestion would be a lot stronger if you could provide a replacement ability for us to compare.
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