Thoughts on "Whisper me roles" King Meta

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#1

So Wahooz just came out with a video which I think addresses this perfectly. This is also in line with some other topics that a glance down the suggestion page will come up with, such as this one, as well as Orange’s idea for whispers. Clearly some players do have a problem with whispers.

I think the main problem with whispers right now is that everyone is whispering the king. So the king has all the information, nobody actually talks or reveals info to the room at large (usually), and as a byproduct of this, new players have an even harder time learning the game.

Seriously, imagine how it feels to be new right now. You’re sitting there trying to think what’s going on, then it’s like:
whisper whisper whisper
“oh, we’re putting up 14 I guess.”
whisper whisper
PARDON
“k we’re pardoning I guess…”
whisper whisper whisper
“now we’re putting up 5…”
whisper… whisper whisper
EXE THIS
“uh ok… executing…”
more whispering
WHISPER ME ROLES TOMORROW OR I’M VOTING YOU UP

And let’s not forget the super fun situation of actually BEING the king as a new player. Executed for being “evil”, anyone? I’m convinced I wouldn’t want all this information from people even if I actually knew the game.

In addition to this, if you don’t whisper the king your role by day 3-4 at the latest, you’re automatically considered suspicious. I’ve actually seen a few people be accused of gamethrowing because they didn’t whisper the king their role, got executed, and were BD.

And, last but not least, everyone whispering the king their roles (and automatically being considered suspicious if they don’t) really ruins the chances you have as an evil/NK role. Once you claim a class, you have no choice but to stick with it. You better hope the class you’re claiming don’t both die, because you already told the king that’s what you were.

Lastly… I just don’t think it’s fun to have to whisper the king roles. It removes a lot of the figuring it out day by day since it’s all just written in the king’s logs and he’s telling certain people who’s who anyway. I think it would be much more fun if, like Wahooz suggests, you couldn’t whisper the king until like day 4 or something.

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Let's talk about whispers
#2

I do think the King shouldnt be the only class whispered to. Ideally, many groups of people should be whispering. Whispering is an interesting mechanic.

Reporting someone for not whispering is stupid, of course, but it helps to keep the King informed while keeping evils in the dark.

Also if make the King unable to whisper for the first couple of days, the Noble becomes useless, which should be avoided.

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#3

The real issue is that there’s really not a middle ground between whispers being too risky and rarely used and not being risky enough and used as the predominant form of important communication. It’s one of the reasons I dislike whispering as a whole, as you either have whisper games as the standard meta or they’re rarely used for anything important. Neither situation is desirable from a game design perspective, so they’re probably best left out altogether in my opinion.

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Whisper meta costs
#4

I think whispering makes games (as a whole) boring. No one talks out loud until they feel like it’s “safe”, which really dumbs down the game for people trying to learn.

If not having the king unable to be whispered to until day 4, why not just have it so no one can whisper until day 4? I still think something needs to be done about this meta where everyone relies on the thing to tell them what to do.

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#5

As Orange says it has to be all or nothing with the whispers.

I wouldn’t be entirely against removing them entirely (although it would require a major Noble rework), but any of these solutions are pretty cumbersome. If you can’t whisper to the King until day 4, people which just mass claim day 4.

I personally think the meta is fine, even if people don’t agree with me. But either way we need to take an all or nothing stance on this.

#6

I think whispers are fine as is

#7

Orange’s solution would still work well with the noble as-is, I think.

https://forum.imperium42.com/t/lets-talk-about-whispers/51870

@Shrimpy I don’t mean to be that guy, but did you watch the video? I fail to see how anyone can excuse the whisper meta after watching a game like that.

(removed post below this because of double post)

#9

Nice. Do you have any arguments for whispering? Because I have seen some against whispering here.

#10

The whisper meta can be countered. Obviously Possessor, Noble and his converted forms can read whispers. Psychic and Illusionist can hide them. Fool wants to get hung, so he doesn’t care. Assassin is expendable, so he can sacrifice himself to out people and get them mislynched. Or you can bait the King into order executing you and attack him the same night. You can even claim Investigative and whisper King that someone (who you know is Prince) is Cult. I did it and Prince got order executed because I didn’t seem like a Scorned (who wants their targets killed during the day).

And of course 20% of the time, the target of all these whispers is Evil King.

#11

Converted noble is a problem for whispers, yes.
Noble, no(because they are BD)
Psychic, no(because they are BD)
Illusionist is so rare that it probably doesnt matter and does not counter OTHER people whispering.
Sacrificing Assassin sounds like a good idea… if you have actually converted someone.
And even then it might not work.
Bait the King? Sure, and then the Prince visits you instead.
Fakeclaim investigative?
It doesn’t work so good if the target claims. If the King would have known the Prince claim then you would have probably gotten a deadly visit from them.
If the BD(or the BD king) is so stupid to believe a “Prince is unseen” claim then the BD deserves the loss.

#12

I just watched half the video and here are my thoughts.

Cult Leader got voted up by King and his defense was to say “Why me?” then claim CW. That’s an obvious scum reaction. He didn’t seem to be prepared, he didn’t even claim scorned target. Assuming 2 paladins I think there’s close to a 25% chance you get checked as Cult n1.

Halfway through the game, there was a missed opportunity to frame the King as Possessor. Invoker could’ve disabled King’s finger and asked him to point to prove. But they sit around and let King get the jump on them by demanding the fake Butler claim poison him.

So I don’t see how this video is proof the whisper meta is bad at all. The narrator acknowledges the King is a good proactive leader yet Cult remains passive and gets wrecked for it.

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#13

I’m not sure you’re understanding what I’m trying to say.

Sacrificing Assassin sounds like a good idea… if you have actually converted someone.

You usually convert someone by n2 so you can do this d2 or d3.

Bait the King? Sure, and then the Prince visits you instead.

Do it in whisper as day ends so you don’t bait Prince instead, obviously.

Fakeclaim investigative? It doesn’t work so good if the target claims.

Even if the target claims, the King will know you aren’t Scorned because you want the target dead that night.

If the King would have known the Prince claim then you would have probably gotten a deadly visit from them.

If.

If the BD(or the BD king) is so stupid to believe a “Prince is unseen” claim then the BD deserves the loss.

Obviously if you know Prince has claimed to King then you don’t do this. Or at least claim Prince yourself and say he fake claimed Prince.

#14

Posses, noble, crat… not really relevant, being able to see one tiny segment of the whispers, isn’t really a big factor in making use of it. If everyone claims to king on day 2… the possesor is going to learn, a grand total of 1 claim… In addition of course any one specific unseen class, is going to be so rare it’s negligable.

illusionist/psychic, even ignoring illusionists rarity, I don’t really see it here. Quiet whispers have what bearing on the everyone whisper the king meta?

So that basically brings us to, maybe a 40%ish chance that a single evil class can intercept a single claim (assuming everyone claims on day 2. ballparking based on the odds of converting the noble, and of course only a 1 in 3 chance of a possesor being present). That part I’d say is pretty negligable, if any of those risks got most or more than one or 2 whispers it could mean more, but for the most part that’s pretty unimpressive. Odds of happening to learn the prince or something of high value are pretty low. It’s only equally dangerous to snoop.

and then of course the king might be evil… 20% chance of getting in a worse position, in a game where you are already going to be in very bad position no matter how you look at it, so… makes a 70% chance of loss, into an 80% in the fringe cases where that comes up.

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#15

You are right that the classes I listed are small in number. However if King is being proactive and making good use of whispers than you need to be more active than him. The King possibly being Evil counters the argument that whisper meta is OP. If you’re scared King order executes you as Prince, claim publicly to get healers and knights on you.

#16

Yo,
if everyone claims to the King(which is the requirement that this meta actually works).
If reaper does not succeed in reaping king(happened to me once as BD king; there were no Knights and no observers; reap was empowered)
If the King isn’t evil
Then you have, if you are evil, a massive problem.

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#17

Yeah, a meta isn’t OP if it only works in 80% of games, especially if a significant portion of that remaining 20, are probably lost causes anyway.

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#18

I was not saying 20% Evil King proves meta isn’t OP, only that it isn’t an argument that the meta is OP (which is what it was being portrayed as).

#19

Claim Hunter and get yourself killed along with real Hunter. Stuff like that, like I explained in a previous post. Claim day 1 to get a jump on the real claims. There are ways to counter this.

#20

And even if the king is evil, you still have a massive problem because most evil kings will play the long con and try to look like BD.

#21

Thing is that it usually works anyway.